Flagging question

[EvilPumpkin]

Came across an interesting situation yesterday. I'll be raising it with our club to find out what the correct Irish protocol is (bad me missed some training sessions this year ) , but I'm curious to know if there's a set procedure in the UK for it as our rules usually co-incide.

Safety car is out and then a red flag is thrown.

Obviously you put the red out - but do you still keep out the yellow flag and safety car board in your sector along with the yellow flag? Or does the Red Flag supercede all else and you don't keep it out - even though the SC is still on circuit and in your sector?

It's an interesting one I think (but then I'm strange that way).

[Hepatic]

the red means to stop racing immediately, whereas under the safety car racing continues albeit under controlled conditions, so i'd guess the red is all thats required. Keeping the safety car board out maybe wise tho, as that way drivers know it's about...

[ianpearson]

I think only one signal should be shown, the red should out rank the SC boards, as a driver with both signals showing to you what would you do? with a red situation you will stop racing & proceed round to the grid to await further instruction, with a SC board you will try to form up in the Que as quickly as possible to ensure you get good track position for the re start. With both signals showing some drivers will form on the grid while others will intend to continue round another lap to find the safety car with the inevitable colision/melee

[Alan Green]

IIRC the safety car will be used to get the pack lined up, and should there then be a decision made to stop the race, the safety car will then take the cars onto the grid where a red flag will be shown. The safety car will stop and all cars hold position on the grid awaiting further instructions. Alternatively they can be led into the pit lane, but this would mean the pit entry marshals being aware of the situation to point the drivers in the right direction (otherwise they might just think safey car has pulled off, & it's a restart).

From being on post, I would continue with yellow & SC board until the cars are on the grid, then with a red shown for anyone not in the train.

Al.

[MagnetON]

Just to expand a little on the scenario, the safety car was dispatched and had taken its normal position in the middle of the track around 3/4 way down the main straight, it was rolling slowly as it had not "picked up" the pack, at this point the red flag was given, so although the SC was "out" the leader still hadn't passed the first yellow flag and SC board when the red went out.

So just another take on it: As the safety car wasn't technically leading the pack at the point the red went out the red flag should take priority, yellows and SC boards should go back IN and the SC should get white flags as normal as it goes around the circuit.

Or will someone who sleeps with the blue/green book come up with a definitive answer

[petestenning]

As i see it the leader had not yet reached the Safety car so may have been unaware the the car was in fact out , then is shown a red flag which means cease racing and return to the grid at a slow pace where the Safety car would have been waiting.
2 questions was the Safety car aware of the red flag as i would expect it was in radio contact and would have been aware.
And how far were the lead cars from the safety car.?

The red flag would take precedence as an observer in the UK i would if enough personal were availible on post expect to show both the Red and yellow + SC board.

[MagnetON]

Red flag went out as the leader was about to pass through the last flag point before the main straight. First flag he would have seen would have been the red flag on the start-finish line.

Well, he "would" have seen it if the organising club's starter had managed to properly display the red flag and not DROP it back into pitlane from the starting gantry by accident after starting to display it.

Which begs the NEXT question in this fiasco..... If the CoC requests a red flag from start/finish line (over the radio) and it's partially displayed then accidentally dropped, do you as the next flag marshal up "go" with the red flag as you know it's been given and that it's made a "cameo" apperance, even though it's technically not being displayed on Start/Finish?

[Gerryc]

MagnetON - If I see the red flag at a previous post (be it startline or anywhere else) I would stick my red out and keep it out until the Course Car hove into view - irrespective of what happened to the original posts flag.

[Robert Duncan]

Based on SCCA operations in the USA, I would display RED immediately (withdraw YELLOW) and add WHITE trailing two stations behind the SC when it has gone by my station. Unless an/the incident was within my corners coverage area, then the YELLOW for the local condition would remain with the RED, and WHITE added as the SC proceeds. Since the SC is not taking control of the pack (due to call for RED) I would not display the SC board. At that point the SC is just a non-racing, slow, vehicle on course.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

. . .

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Or will someone who sleeps with the blue/green book come up with a definitive answer

I never slept with it; we are just good friends.

My take on this is as follows:

The situation is not catered for in the Blue book or in the MSA Safety Car regulations (which are so secret that they are not issued or publicised except when you contact them and ask for a copy! )

The circuit goes under safety car regulations all at once because the SC board is displayed all round the circuit as fast as it can be seen from one post to the next. (Assuming that you have sufficient flags/observers to watch both ways at once, that is.)

Ditto the Red flag.

So the position of the safety car vis-�*-vis the competitors is not relevant.

I would argue that the actions of the drivers should change from SC to Red flag as the signals which they can see change. As both require “no overtaking” the chief difference is the duty to stop on the grid or in the pits “as indicated by marshals”. (Yeah sure, someone is going to be standing 50 meters behind the grid indicating where they want drivers to go.)

As for the briefly displayed flag, I would support anyone who assumed the safe thing (Oops- he’s dropped that one) rather than the unsafe one (Oh I guess he did not mean to pick up that flag.)

Regards

Jim

[EvilPumpkin]

Well if it's not catered to in the blue book, I'd be willing to take a bet it's not catered to in the green book either!

[Mark Mitchell]

Withdraw yellow flags/SC boards......replace with red except at site of incident, where the yellow would remain alongside the red!

[goforit500]

Drivers opinion - I'd say withdraw the SC & yellow and get the red 'un waving ASAP !!

There could be a temptation (Ah-Hem) to run hard to catch the pack and be well caught out by very slow traffic - A red means that all bets are off and there is no point whatsoever in catching the pack....

I also remember the safety car at the Willhire a couple of years ago that went so quickly we had to try bloody hard to catch it, but thats a different issue !!

[CombeMarshal]

I'd say go for the red, nothing else, as said by Goforit, the racing is over when the reds come out, the yellows/SC board seem to mean 'Catch up with the pack asap!'
But what do I know!!!
Lee

[John Newman]

Red Takes preedence over anything else.
see http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk for clarification.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by John Newman

Red Takes preedence over anything else.
see http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk for clarification.

Not in the way I was trained (By BMMC)

I was instructed that if for example the incident/accident was in your sector, then you should keep the yellow flag waved to mark the location of the incident. If for any reason, you were unable to wave two flags at the same time (Red & the Yellow) then the Yellow should be the priority!

[Woolley]

Consensus forming, then. Red replaces yellow/SC, yellows remain out where any incidents are in addition to red if possible, and maybe a white where the SC is.

The first two bits are fairly standard over here. The SC is a Red Herring, or whatever else your local dealer is trying to flog at the moment...

So, to make it more difficult, you're waving red and yellow simultaneously, you've got the white in your teeth and the phone rings so that race control can ask you to write a report. Yes, that is an experience I've enjoyed.

[danccooke]

i hope you had the SC board out Wolley, and if there was already a car abandoned i hope you also had out the obstruction/attention board. if you were lucky you might had added a little oil to the situation as well........

[Woolley]

LOL. yellow & red was shown for the restarted race instead of the green!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Woolley

and maybe a white where the SC is.

Why?

[Woolley]

Good question, hence 'Maybe'. Course vehicle (probably slow moving) presents a hazard of which the competitors may need to be warned. I'd hope he'd be going at about the same speed as the now slowed down competitors, though, so maybe not.

[Mark Mitchell]

Never seen a white for the SC, although if other vehicles are on circuit as well (Recovery, Doctor etc) then I would expect to see a white flag in that sector and the previous sector.

[blueflagger]

In the US, flag rules tend to change with the wind. I've put out the red while keeping the SC yellow up and I've also been at events where all the drivers are simply radioed to follow the SC into the pits and we kept the yellow up on course. In the latter case, all the cars have always already been in the pack so we didn't have to worry about catch-up speeders.

A couple of weeks ago, the safety car was put on track and then we were told to go red. Because of the course design, all the cars had seen at least one corner with the SC yellow before they saw the red flag and they all slowed down and pitted in order. They were very well behaved, but it's early in the season yet (for us).