2013 MSA Proposed Rule Change "Track Limits"

[vector-pat]

When it comes to MSA Rule changes I am sure that you are aware of the process involved but I thought that I might just take the opportunity bring to your attention a proposal for 2013 regarding "track limits". Whilst I appreciate the problems that track operators and officials have faced in recent years, I feel that the balance is now just about right. This proposed new regulation is in my view both unrealistic and unable to be enforced.

If you go to the MSA website www.msauk.org on the front page towards the bottom left you will find a section marked “Regulations for Consultation”. If you go into this area you will find various rule changes that are out for consultation and at the moment there is one there from Race Committee and one from Speed Committee - look at the Race Committee proposal. If you read the proposed changes you are entitled to make comment about them by sending a response to raceconsultation@msauk.org in the case of the Race proposal.

[Al Weyman]

I like the idea, about time to I am fed up with the constant kerb hopping you see everywhere, bring it on.

[MagnetON]

The white lines show the track.

Racing is about finding the quickest line to drive around the track.

It's not about finding the quickest line to drive around the track and as much OFF the track as you can get away with.

Can't drive quick and stay fully within the lines? Drive slower or accept the penalties.

I bet if (like oval racing) one edge of the track was delimited with a dirty big wall then drivers would suddenly be able to keep all four wheels within the track.

[kimbo]

Taken from the new regulation:

(b)

Should any wheel of the car no longer remain

within the track, defined in (a) above, it

a driver

will be judged to have left the track

I'm already confused - do they mean if any ONE wheel no longer remains within the track i.e one wheel 'off' = car off the track, or one wheel 'on' = car on the track.
As per usual, slackly written and therefore ambiguous.
Or is it just me?

Kim

[ss_collins]

Its a bit grey really if you you are not allowed to run a kerb, then why is the kerb there?

[Al Weyman]

because if they put armco there they would forever be stopping the race and have expensive bills and long stoppages repairing it after the inevitable offs. No this idea makes sense to me and they are are not proposing black flagging the offender off just a drive through. I would rather that than the repair costs if I made a mistake and hit a barrier. Its probably worded a bit ambiguous because its up for discussion.

[MGDavid]

IMO it's worse (more vague) than before. Current clearly states white line is part of track but kerb is not. New reg makes no such statement or clear distinction. Some kerbs (painted red and white) can be up to a metre wide - is the whole kerb part of the track? under the new rule it's not clear...

[MagnetON]

Regulation clearly states that the track is defined by the white lines, if one wheel leaves the track (the tarmaccy dark bit between the white lines, does that make it clear enough?) then the car is deemed to have left the track.

Hardly rocket science.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Its a bit grey really if you you are not allowed to run a kerb, then why is the kerb there?

To protect the edge of the tarmac against damage. Notice that the white lines that delineate the track edge are still on the tarmac where there is kerbing?

[deley]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Regulation clearly states that the track is defined by the white lines, if one wheel leaves the track (the tarmaccy dark bit between the white lines, does that make it clear enough?) then the car is deemed to have left the track.

Hardly rocket science.

however this thread is about the proposed new change to the BB ... in which the existing white line definition is changed to include the kerb

Originally Posted by MGDavid

IMO it's worse (more vague) than before. Current clearly states white line is part of track but kerb is not. New reg makes no such statement or clear distinction. Some kerbs (painted red and white) can be up to a metre wide - is the whole kerb part of the track? under the new rule it's not clear...

Absolutely. The proposed new definition of track limit causes more issues than the clearer previous one. To be honest I cannot work out what the issue is with the current definition that this new one is trying to fix



Dave

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by deley

however this thread is about the proposed new change to the BB ... in which the existing white line definition is changed to include the kerb

It doesn't change the definition to include the kerb, it includes painting the track surface to indicate the kerb.

"Kerbs will be indicated by painting alternative colours, normally red/white onto the track surface, and will typically include a physical kerb feature."

Therefore if there is a white line then that is the edge of the track and where there is a kerb this will be painted on the track surface.

So if there's a white line in front of any physical feature then the white line delimits the track.

If there is alternating paint colours in front of a physical feature then the painted colours delimit the track.

So, bottom line, stay on the track, don't bounce over any bits at the side.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Regulation clearly states that the track is defined by the white lines, if one wheel leaves the track (the tarmaccy dark bit between the white lines, does that make it clear enough?) then the car is deemed to have left the track.

Hardly rocket science.

Ah, you're being selective!
It actually says: 'The edge of the track shall be defined by white lines and (my italics) any kerbs'.
so is the edge the kerb or the white line?
Now if the white line is absent where there's a kerb it could make sense.
But if there's a white line AND a kerb (i.e. tarmac>white line>kerb) then it makes no sense at all.
Does the white line stop where there is a kerb? Are all corners at all UK circuits painted identically?

Then the new draft goes on to say: 'kerbs will be indicated by painting alternative (sic - should be alternate) colours, normally red/white onto the track surface,...' which says to me that the kerb is part of the track !

It is very clear that the MSA never consider an excellent ability with written English language a pre-requisite when allocating the job of writing regulations. Some might say they are getting worse not better. Poor show for a professional organisation.

[ss_collins]

Err right so reading that means I can run the kerb. The kerb is the bit that is a different colour. But if it is beyond the white line I can't, or can I? is this daft rule? yes.

I can see this being open to interpretation and observers at one track or in one club doing things differently to another.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Ah, you're being selective!

Not really, strangely enough this regulation seems clear to me. Inner edge of the white line, or in the absence of a white line, the inner edge of any painted track boundry marks the edge of the track.

Black stuff = track, keep all the wheels in that bit, a wheel goes anywhere that's painted = car off the track = reported.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Err right so reading that means I can run the kerb. The kerb is the bit that is a different colour. But if it is beyond the white line I can't, or can I? is this daft rule? yes.

I can see this being open to interpretation and observers at one track or in one club doing things differently to another.

precisely!

(I can't help wondering if the writer of the proposed rule has ever walked or driven round a circuit...)

[barnettracing]

Surely the fact that we're having so much debate about it across two threads shows that the proposed rule (in its current wording) does not make universal sense. Upon reading it over and over again, I can see how the kerb can appear both within and outside the track limits.

Thus, in reading one;
- a driver can put two wheels (or even for wheels on, but not a single wheel over) a kerb.

OR

In reading two;
- a driver cannot put a single wheel over a white line or onto the alternately painted kerbing.

[yesnomaybe]

heres a direct link to the proposed rule change
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/r...aceMay2012.pdf

it seems pretty clear to me, that you *can* use the kerbs, and if the kerb is big enough, be completely outside the white lines, because the kerb is defined as part of the track

Heres the changed rules
(a) the edge of the track shall be defined by white lines and any kerbs
(b) Should any wheel of the car no longer remain within the track, defined in (a) above, it a driver will be judged to have left the track

i think it'll make it easier for observers to see when people are off the track, e.g. if they have a wheel on the grass / touching gravel etc,

i think the change is good as its more realistic... they accept that people will drive beyond the white lines, e.g. on the kerbs.

Using any more space than that will mean you're dragging debris etc onto the track, damaging grass etc, so i guess its this they're trying to avoid, as at the moment as long as you have at least part of the car over a white line, then you're on the track and driving legally, but using that approach would mean your going through grass, bringing debris onto the tarmac, like this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coletri...57629916245484

i think a few tracks will need modifying, e.g. paddock at brands, theres a green bit of concrete beyond the red and white kerb which everyone uses, if this rule goes through they'd have to (IMO) paint it red and white so its a kerb or get rid of it and replace it with gravel

the comments that if you can't drive within the white lines etc are nonsense, motorsport is all about circulating as quickly as possible, a Martin Brundle quote springs to mind “A racing driver’s job is to shorten the track and make it as straight a line as he can get away with.”

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

the comments that if you can't drive within the white lines etc are nonsense, motorsport is all about circulating as quickly as possible,

Within the limits of the track!

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

a Martin Brundle quote springs to mind “A racing driver’s job is to shorten the track and make it as straight a line as he can get away with.”

yup, "shorten the track", not "shorten the track by ignoring the bits of the track you don't have the ability to keep your car on."

I stand by my previous point, wheels on the paint = reported, then it's the CoC's job to deal with interpretation and drivers excuses.

[Cynic]

Seems straight forward enough to me. If it's a white line or a recognisable kerb it would be officially part of the racing surface and could be used as such. hands up any drivers who don't do that already anyway?

Really? Liar!

Anyway, where the fun would be is the bit that says one wheel off of the defined racing surface would be an offence. I suspect that what this is really about is to stop drivers treating tarmac run off as part of the racing surface (think Paddock Hill Bend or Copse). There may not be kerbs there but there are white lines, so any ambiguity will be removed. Especially if it's a televised meeting.

[barnettracing]

As I've said, if the kerbs (in 2013) become part of the track then the new legislations seems fine. However, if the kerbs remain outside the track limits then I believe it is going to create more problems than it solves. The wording definitely needs clearing up.

I'm assuming all the white lines will either be repainted to go around the inside of apex kerbs/outside of exit kerbs or will blend into the leading/trailing edge of each kerb. Otherwise, it would technically be quite confusing as there would be two track limits with a thin strip of 'no man's land' in the middle.

[bella]

to make it relevant to this forum cause it IS here after all, exhibit a is the penalty jean eric vergne received at monza last year for not respecting track limits. he skipped the chicane slightly on the first lap to dodge some drama, and then was slapped when he took to the wrong bit of tarmac to avoid an avoidable collision. aforementioned time penalty was defeated on appeal, but it shows the importance of the stewards/guvnor using their noggin and looking at the context of the action as well as the offence itself.

i have no problem with track limits being enforced more seriously but only where it's clear there's been a time or position gain and it's not been the only option for a driver when the only other choice was clattering into an opponent.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by yesnomaybe

heres a direct link to the proposed rule change
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/r...aceMay2012.pdf

it seems pretty clear to me, that you *can* use the kerbs, and if the kerb is big enough, be completely outside the white lines, because the kerb is defined as part of the track

Heres the changed rules
(a) the edge of the track shall be defined by white lines and any kerbs
(b) Should any wheel of the car no longer remain within the track, defined in (a) above, it a driver will be judged to have left the track

i think it'll make it easier for observers to see when people are off the track, e.g. if they have a wheel on the grass / touching gravel etc,

i think the change is good as its more realistic... they accept that people will drive beyond the white lines, e.g. on the kerbs.

Using any more space than that will mean you're dragging debris etc onto the track, damaging grass etc, so i guess its this they're trying to avoid, as at the moment as long as you have at least part of the car over a white line, then you're on the track and driving legally, but using that approach would mean your going through grass, bringing debris onto the tarmac, like this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coletri...57629916245484

i think a few tracks will need modifying, e.g. paddock at brands, theres a green bit of concrete beyond the red and white kerb which everyone uses, if this rule goes through they'd have to (IMO) paint it red and white so its a kerb or get rid of it and replace it with gravel

the comments that if you can't drive within the white lines etc are nonsense, motorsport is all about circulating as quickly as possible, a Martin Brundle quote springs to mind “A racing driver’s job is to shorten the track and make it as straight a line as he can get away with.”

But I don't think that Martin meant that at Donington (for example) a driver should turn sharp right halfway through Redgate, cut across the infield and re-join the circuit at Coppice (missing all that time-consuming malarkey negotiating the Craner Curves and The Old Hairpin!)

[yesnomaybe]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Within the limits of the track!

yup, "shorten the track", not "shorten the track by ignoring the bits of the track you don't have the ability to keep your car on."

I stand by my previous point, wheels on the paint = reported, then it's the CoC's job to deal with interpretation and drivers excuses.

sorry, drivers will try and circulate as quickly as possible within the rules, which at the moment means they can run up to 99.9% of their car off the track if they want, nothing to do with lack of ability, IMO those drivers not using the full width of the track or touching kerbs are low on ability and not really thinking enough about how to circulate quickly

you may as well print off the entire days entry list in advance if your going to report every driver who touches the painted kerbs

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

But I don't think that Martin meant that at Donington (for example) a driver should turn sharp right halfway through Redgate, cut across the infield and re-join the circuit at Coppice (missing all that time-consuming malarkey negotiating the Craner Curves and The Old Hairpin!)

um no, nor do i??

[MagnetON]

I'm sure if we replaced the kerbs with police "stingers" or with something that could detect a car transponder crossing it and automatically apply a 5 second penalty then drivers would suddenly find the "ability" to keep all the wheels on.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

I'm sure if we replaced the kerbs with police "stingers" or with something that could detect a car transponder crossing it and automatically apply a 5 second penalty then drivers would suddenly find the "ability" to keep all the wheels on.

Of course we would, but currently the rules allow us to put two/three wheels over the kerbs as long as one wheel remains inside the white line. The problem isn't with the drivers, it is with circuits that allow you to gain an advantage by running off the track. If exit kerbs were just replaced with grass then I would guarantee that less people would run their cars off on the exit.

As has been said, it is up to the driver to drive the fastest route within the current regulations, just as it is up to designers to bend the rules to create the fastest cars.