Safety car usage (EuroBOSS)

[redshoes]

At the TOCA meeting at Brands this year the safety car had to be deployed but failed to pick up the leader, instead it got a couple of backmarkers just in front of the leader. They then waited until the incident was cleared before allowing those two cars to pass the safety car and catch up the rear of the field, effectively meaning we lost another couple of laps before everyone was in formation and the green flag could be displayed.

At the time I questioned why the backmarkers hadn't been allowed through sooner and was told that as there were still marshals working trackside it would not have been safe due to the need to increase speed it catch up. All seems perfectly sensible so far.

At Donington today during the EuroBOSS we had a similar situation, the safety car picked up 2 or 3 backmarkers ahead of the leader. This time instead of waiting as soon as they realised the mistake they let the backmarkers overtake the safety car. Unfortunately they also let the leader through, which meant they had no choice but to then let the remaining cars overtake. We were left with the farcical situation of the safety car driving around on it's own for a couple of laps whilst the entire field hurried round to form up behind it, then letting the backmarkers through for a second time. All the time we still had a number of marshals working to remove two cars from Redgate. All of which seems to go completely against the earlier explanation.

I'm not trying to point fingers here. Obviously every situation is different and mistakes do happen. As an interested bystander I'm just curious if anyone here was on post at the time and has any thoughts about what happended.

[Bob Pearson]

Yes, we were watching at Redgate and saw the SC pick up the wrong cars, we despaired a bit at that point and went back to the paddock

[Flagman]

Perhaps they should have used the Black & Yellow...

[Stephen Green]

Two problems.

1. I don't think the Black & Yellow is an internationally recognised flag and I thought EuroBoss ran to international regs?

2. Sadly the Black & Yellow flag disappears at the end of this year and is no longer in the Blue Book for 2004.

The issue mentioned above merely highlights the problems in using Safety Cars over flags in my opinion.

[Flagman]

My comment was meant to be a wind up, given Bob's position on B&Y flags - It just shows what is likely to happen more often next year.

[Stephen Green]

I can only agree with your fears Flagman, yet more chaos to come

[Bob Pearson]

After yesterday I am completely unwindable!! It would be interesting to know BARC's reason for using the safety car. They don't normally use it, or B/Y's at a Club Meeting. Maybe it is written into the Boss regs. On the subject of next year, as I said above that the BARC doesn't use either method of controlling club races so the demise of the B/Y won't change anything at their meetings.

[Dutch chap]

In the case as redshoes described I think the best they could do after letting the leader pass the SC by mistake, is to put out a red flag. There will allways be mistakes. The trick is to get as less mistakes as possible. I noticed a couple of years ago at the BGP that there were 4 or 5 different rules for handling the SC for 4 or 5 different classes. Now that's confusing and must lead to making mistakes. It would help a lot if there was just 1 set of rules for the SC. As for the B/Y, it works fine a lot of times but I think it depends to mutch of the leading driver. If, for instance, he is not aware that he is in fact the leader (because he thinks he is second, being not aware that the leader just entered the pits) things will go wrong. Just my opinion and on the few occasions that I've been marshalling in the UK and the B/Y was used, it always went fine and I've never seen it go wrong.

[Chigley]

Ei heck this got complicated, here's how I saw what happened and perhaps what caused the confusion / farce.

On the same lap as the incident at The Old Hairpin which I believed called for the safety car Zlaus (car 2) span at Mcleans trying to avoid a back marker. This gave the lead to Scott Mansell (car 6) just as the safety car came out thereby giving race control a headache as far as the timing screens portrayed what they thought was the correct situation (wrong). The safety car then picked up the back markers who had car 6 right behind them. As the safety car let the back markers through the leader went through as well! I believe a lack of experience came into play here.

When everyone formed up again behind the safety car they again let the 2 backmarkers through and only just managed to stop an acclerating leader from going past again. Short of swerving across the bows of a rather expensive piece of machinery and risking another course car/race car collision it must have been a bit difficult to stop a radiply acclerating F1 car.

That's how I perceived it from Coppice, any other takers?

[Craig]

Originally posted by Dutch chap
Just my opinion and on the few occasions that I've been marshalling in the UK and the B/Y was used, it always went fine and I've never seen it go wrong.

Nick Fairman anyone...?

Sorry but these guys are racing drivers - they're always going to push that extra 5% - sometimes that can be too much - they should not be trusted to dictate their own pace

[Woolley]

I can't understand how it goes so badly wrong. Now I've done a pace car (not the Donington one, but ASCAR) there's no real issue. Listen to instructions and be clear in what you do. My method was to call one through and stop the next, making sure you've now identified the car and know what to do with it, asking for confirmation if necessary. You then repeat until you get to the leader, job done. The commentators knew who was leading so they should have been listening to the radio too for extra information.

Didn't the leader get called past twice yesterday? In the words of Oscar Wilde, "Once can be considered misfortune, twice is downright carelessness."

Seriously, I don't wish to point fingers - there's probably mitigating circumstances, and I'd be happy to hear them before passing jusdgement.

[andrew_powell98]

I got told about this by a friend who was sepectating as a friend is in the Ginettas. He said it was a compleate cock up. How could it go so badly wrong. This is not the first time it has happpened nor will it be the last. i just hope that the scrapping of the battenburg flag will not cause to many problems with the use of SC. How come not many SC drivers wave 1 car through at a time (yes it will delay the back marker but they will catch up the pack) untill the SC has the leader behind it?

[Micky.H]

Rather confusing when trying to direct a team across the track at Redgate to push one safe.

[redshoes]

As I said at the start my intension on this thread is not to aportion blame, rather to highlight the obvious safety concerns. One of the cars at Redgate was on right on the exit, barely onto the grass, the other on the inside, again only just of the tarmac. In such a situation I would have expected the safety car to bring the field through at little more than walking pace.

Yes the SC boards were out and there were waved yellows but the cars were still going at a fair speed with debris on the track and marshals only a few yards away.

[Stevespurr]

If it had happened at a Grand Prix it would have made an intresting race. The way they let the whole pack through twice was undelivable.

[Woolley]

I've reread my post and I realise it sounds a little harsh. If anyone took it that way, apologies are due as it was not meant in the tone that it came out. My questions are from a curiosity point of view not meant as criticism. Anyone can make a mistake and I really would like to know what went wrong - I might just be in the same position myself one day!

[mark_l]

I was one of the marshals that witnessed Nic Fairmans accident, and the consequences and at least someone agrees with me that the B/Y flag was a cause of the accident.

I am glad to see that sense has prevailed and it has been abolished. Just a shame Nic had to lose his life before the powers that be took notice.

[Flagman]

I am glad to see that sense has prevailed and it has been abolished. Just a shame Nic had to lose his life before the powers that be took notice

But its not being replaced with anything that is potentially any safer!

The incident under the safety car in the Formula Renault race at Donington a month ago could just as easily have had a similar result.

[Stephen Green]

What it WILL mean is a greater number of red flags as many of the smaller clubs will not be able to fund a safety car or rapid intervention vehicle. Personally I thought the black/yellow was a good idea and am saddened by it's demise. We have to admit that no system is infallible and that there are pros and cons to all means of controlling a race while marshals or medical staff work trackside.

[Flagman]

Agreed - so all drivers will be hoping that their race is not scheduled for the end of the day...

[Stephen Green]

Unfortunately I think you are right and that at many meetings races, especially those at the end of the day, will be shortened to acommodate curfews etc.

[mark ch]

I've yet to go trackside under a B/Y and would be very reluctant to (and would most probably not go out on track (1st rule of marshalling your own safety))) when backmakers are at full racing speed trying to catch up the leaders. Red Flaging it makes the scene safe for all, drivers stuck in danger and marshals who need to assist them. Meetings will have to be scheduled to accomodate a safer meeting.

[Stephen Green]

Mark,

Even under black/yellow flags no-one ever suggested marshals work trackside while the 'tail enders' caught up. It was only when the 'crocodile' was formed that marshals went to work, thus ensuring that safety was uppermost in peoples mind.

[stroller]

Meetings will have to be scheduled to accomodate a safer meeting.

Trouble is where do you draw the line?

To be able to make the meetings pay , organisers need a minimum number of entries.
Reduce the number of races means less entries.
Less entries mean higher entry fees.
Higher entry fees means less entries.

Shorter lunch breaks ??
(I think not)

Where do we start??

[spearce]

They were using the B/Y flag at CCombe on Sat. In one race (the FF2000's I think) the leaders didn't seem to slow down at all, and the green was shown after a lap anyway. I can't see how it can be safe to work trackside under these conditions, and why is no action taken against drivers who don't back off - especially the race leader?