diesel engine in a single seater???...

knighty · 17 Jul 2006, 13:28 (Ref:1658208)

has anyone ever put a turbo-diesel in a single seater?......or intending to?.......I think its only a matter of time before it happens as people like audi are spending a lot of money promoting turbo diesels in motorsport........this thread might provoke some harsh criticisms of diesels, but before anyone does I would just like to say its now quite straight forward to get over 100 bhp per litre form a tuned diesel.......not to mention over 50% more torque than its petrol equivalent........I would be interested to hear if its been done or is intending to be done???.....

zac510 · 17 Jul 2006, 13:34 (Ref:1658212)

I would suggest that we need to wait for a racing class to allow diesel engines in their regulations before we see a diesel engined open wheeler. It will be interesting nonetheless!

Hitech · 17 Jul 2006, 13:38 (Ref:1658218)

Unless there is a specific diesel class I wouldn't have thought this was likely in the near future.
While diesels are now so much better than they were, for a single seater they can't hold a candle to a well developed petrol engine (eg 185 bhp for a sorted 1000cc road bike engine, or 250bhp plus for an out and out MotoGP engine)
Phil

knighty · 17 Jul 2006, 14:22 (Ref:1658252)

It honestly wouldnt surprise me to see a diesel class pop-up in something like formula ford or formula Renault.....sounds funny I know......nearly as funny as the fact that about quarter to half the cars now being sold by are diesels......

consider the new 1.6 duratec FF motor, with about 140Bhp, weighs about 110Kg (I think)......ford have an all-alloy 16v common-rail 1.6 turbo diesel developed in conjunction with Peugeot, has now been in production for about 3 years......100bhp per litre is quite do-able for a tuned diesel, so with 160bhp, and 50% more torque than the pertol engine.......I would fully expect the diesel to wipe the floor with the petrol engine........

I think its only a matter of time before a manufacturer does it.......its gotta be cheaper than F1 or Le-mans programme!!!!

REALIST · 17 Jul 2006, 14:34 (Ref:1658265)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

It honestly wouldnt surprise me to see a diesel class pop-up in something like formula ford or formula Renault.....sounds funny I know......nearly as funny as the fact that about quarter to half the cars now being sold by are diesels......

consider the new 1.6 duratec FF motor, with about 140Bhp, weighs about 110Kg (I think)......ford have an all-alloy 16v common-rail 1.6 turbo diesel developed in conjunction with Peugeot, has now been in production for about 3 years......100bhp per litre is quite do-able for a tuned diesel, so with 160bhp, and 50% more torque than the pertol engine.......I would fully expect the diesel to wipe the floor with the petrol engine........

I think its only a matter of time before a manufacturer does it.......its gotta be cheaper than F1 or Le-mans programme!!!!

BMW and VW both have 2L diesels putting out well over 150 bhp. Fit one of the many bolt on tuning devices available and you have near 200BHP, loads of torque and excellent reliability. To get the best of the relatively narrow rev band you will need at least 6 speeds but it should be very possible.

The smoke and sound won't be popular maybe?

knighty · 17 Jul 2006, 15:28 (Ref:1658301)

smoke - simple, you use a particulate filter just like Taurus and Audi did on their Le-mans diesels, about the size of a conventional single seater silencer, so it should fit a treat

noise - well less noise at circuits is a good thing especially due to the amount of noise testing now conducted - Donnington is a classic example......but yes, I see your point, people want to hear something.......but a 4 pot motor is never gonna make the hairs stand up on the back of your kneck like a V8 panoz motor does!......all the little 4 pots sound like wet farts at the end of the day

andy97 · 17 Jul 2006, 16:35 (Ref:1658357)

The Monoposto Racing Club discussed this at this years AGM - no decision was taken to include diesel engined cars in the future but the fact that it was discussed as an option at all shows that it is possible sooner than some might think.

REALIST · 17 Jul 2006, 20:15 (Ref:1658549)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

smoke - simple, you use a particulate filter just like Taurus and Audi did on their Le-mans diesels, about the size of a conventional single seater silencer, so it should fit a treat

noise - well less noise at circuits is a good thing especially due to the amount of noise testing now conducted - Donnington is a classic example......but yes, I see your point, people want to hear something.......but a 4 pot motor is never gonna make the hairs stand up on the back of your kneck like a V8 panoz motor does!......all the little 4 pots sound like wet farts at the end of the day

Particulate filters are that small now? I am aware that they would be a solution but know that the one used in the VW Caddy van that was raced last year (with a 240hp version of the 2.0TDi, by the way) was a huge thing, totally unsuitable for a single seater.

Eddy V · 17 Jul 2006, 20:17 (Ref:1658553)

There used to be a (bio) diesel powered ss class in France some years ago. Formula Campus or something like that. Horrible looking and sounding cars.

knighty · 18 Jul 2006, 07:55 (Ref:1658878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by REALIST

Particulate filters are that small now? I am aware that they would be a solution but know that the one used in the VW Caddy van that was raced last year (with a 240hp version of the 2.0TDi, by the way) was a huge thing, totally unsuitable for a single seater.

yup they are "that" small now......I honestly believe they are a bit of a sticky plaster covering up a poor combustion process........if the re-entrant piston bowl shape and the injector spray pattern is all working in harmony together, all the fuel charge stays within the piston bowl and ALL gets burnt, therefore no black smoke - which is basically un-burnt fuel.......I would be interested to see how they got 240bhp from the 2.0 TDI, I will bet they just cranked up the fuel pressure and put a load more boost in, which would not surprise me it made a shed load of black smoke - therefore needed a mother of a particulate filter.......but 240bhp from a 2.0 TDI is still very impressive - I doff my cap!

REALIST · 18 Jul 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1658895)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

yup they are "that" small now......I honestly believe they are a bit of a sticky plaster covering up a poor combustion process........if the re-entrant piston bowl shape and the injector spray pattern is all working in harmony together, all the fuel charge stays within the piston bowl and ALL gets burnt, therefore no black smoke - which is basically un-burnt fuel.......I would be interested to see how they got 240bhp from the 2.0 TDI, I will bet they just cranked up the fuel pressure and put a load more boost in, which would not surprise me it made a shed load of black smoke - therefore needed a mother of a particulate filter.......but 240bhp from a 2.0 TDI is still very impressive - I doff my cap!

I bow to your better knowledge! The PF on the Tdi was huge and lay in the van where you would normally carry parcels!

One thing on smoke though if, as you say, it is unburnt fuel; surely you will always get that when accelerating on full throttle?

knighty · 18 Jul 2006, 08:58 (Ref:1658922)

Quote:

Originally Posted by REALIST

I bow to your better knowledge! The PF on the Tdi was huge and lay in the van where you would normally carry parcels!

One thing on smoke though if, as you say, it is unburnt fuel; surely you will always get that when accelerating on full throttle?

No - that shouldnt happen.......Due to government legislation on automotive emissions, manufacturers are just not allowed to sell cars that beltch out black smoke, some do, but only marginal - if its excessive then theres quite likley something wrong with the car/engine - the likes of Ford, GM etc spend squillions developing both combustion cycle efficiency and mapping the engines......the problem with race diesel engines are that the tuning is often very crude, I have heard of people drilling extra holes in the injector nozzles, upping the fuel pressure and boost levels........then hacking the standard ECU with a piggy-back ECU system.......all sounds very clever, but compared to what the manufacturers do in say 1 year of engine development, 2 days on a rolling road its a real pee in the ocean........its all down to cash at the end of the day, so I dont really blame anyone for slapping on a huge parriculate filter for a quick fix.

REALIST · 18 Jul 2006, 09:11 (Ref:1658936)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

No - that shouldnt happen.......Due to government legislation on automotive emissions, manufacturers are just not allowed to sell cars that beltch out black smoke, some do, but only marginal - if its excessive then theres quite likley something wrong with the car/engine - the likes of Ford, GM etc spend squillions developing both combustion cycle efficiency and mapping the engines......the problem with race diesel engines are that the tuning is often very crude, I have heard of people drilling extra holes in the injector nozzles, upping the fuel pressure and boost levels........then hacking the standard ECU with a piggy-back ECU system.......all sounds very clever, but compared to what the manufacturers do in say 1 year of engine development, 2 days on a rolling road its a real pee in the ocean........its all down to cash at the end of the day, so I dont really blame anyone for slapping on a huge parriculate filter for a quick fix.

It's just that I used to have a 150 bhp Golf GTiTDi 1.9. It smoked horribly under full throttle. Particularly at night with lights behind you it was embarassing. I fitted a 'tunit' device to up power to 180bhp. Smoke output was just the same, but car a lot more fun!

My experience with that car and my current 3 series (163bhp) is what leads me to believe that a diesel in a single seater would not be too bad - excpet for the smoke!!

knighty · 18 Jul 2006, 10:31 (Ref:1659001)

this isexactly what the rule makers (ACO) at Le-mans did not want to see, when the Taurus Lola CAT/VW Diesel thingy turned up at Le-mans in 2004 and was beltching out black smoke, they were told to sort it out for the race .......its even now written into the ACO rules, clearly stating black smoke is just not allowed......I think the MSA will follow suit sooner or later.....Taurus sorted the smoke problem with some particulate filters and a bit of mapping - I think.......from what I'm told they did with the piston bowl - its absolutley no surprise it belched black smoke out, but thats another story........

am surprised to hear about your golf, that may be something to do with the VW injection system, I dont think they use common-rail.......they use a semi mechanical/electric system called pumpe-duzer, very high injection pressure (2000Bar) but I dont think you have the injector control that you have with a common rail system.......common rail injectors are now squirting 3 times on the combustion stroke - soon to be 5 times.......all in an attempt to reduce combustion noise and reduce emissions

I think the main problem of putting a diesel in a single seater race series would be getting everyone to accept the thought of it - particularly the paying drivers......all I can say is even Jeremy Clarkson has had to eat a major slice of diesel humble pie........the more he slates them - the more they sell, about 1 in 3 cars now sold are diesel.......

Matt22 · 18 Jul 2006, 10:34 (Ref:1659004)

The smoke factor is an issue, but it is a calibration issue not an engine issue. Black smoke is partially burned fuel. When you have used up all the air, adding a bit more fuel gives more smoke but the power output stays the same. Most manufacturers are looking at twin turbos to increase power and widen the torque-band.

BTW, the 1.9 VW was always pushing the smoke limit a bit and never made 150bhp in standard tune. What did the tune-it include? was it just electronics?

knighty · 18 Jul 2006, 11:39 (Ref:1659044)

Most manufacturers are looking at twin turbos to increase power and widen the torque-band.

thats interesting - I thought variable geometry compressor housings took care of that? - I know the Jag V6 Lion Diesel uses twin turbos, but thats more to do with marketing/packaging/layout......I did hear that the new BMW 6 pot diesel is using twin turbos, one small, and one large......

sorry - mapping is not the sole fix for black smoke - the shape and configuration of the re-entrant piston combustion bow, swirl factor and injector spray cone angle are all MAJOR factors in producing/reducing black smoke ;-)

I dare say mateys upgrade was just an electronic piggy-back system that increased the injection duration

Matt22 · 18 Jul 2006, 12:15 (Ref:1659068)

Yep, I think the lion is just one turbo per side (?) VGTs help but you are still limited to about 3:1 boost. The BMW is about 5:1 I think.

To get back to the point in question, a small diesel engine in a single seater is a nice idea but the packaging of the rest of the kit is the problem

REALIST · 18 Jul 2006, 13:34 (Ref:1659124)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

Most manufacturers are looking at twin turbos to increase power and widen the torque-band.

thats interesting - I thought variable geometry compressor housings took care of that? - I know the Jag V6 Lion Diesel uses twin turbos, but thats more to do with marketing/packaging/layout......I did hear that the new BMW 6 pot diesel is using twin turbos, one small, and one large......

sorry - mapping is not the sole fix for black smoke - the shape and configuration of the re-entrant piston combustion bow, swirl factor and injector spray cone angle are all MAJOR factors in producing/reducing black smoke ;-)

I dare say mateys upgrade was just an electronic piggy-back system that increased the injection duration

Matey? me?

You may be right, it was just a plug in system but it sure as hell made a big difference. look on tunit.co.uk and you tell me.

Anyway, certainly didn't make it smoke more or less, certainly increased power a lot, fuel consumption was no worse overall and it was a great car to drive. I bought it after having a 2.5L twin turbo petrol engined Mitzubishi VR4, to avoid car tax, and honestly, the golf was just as much fun and to all intents and purposes as fast. OK, it wouldn't do 140 like the VR4 did once, but how often can you do that?

Matt is probably right the packaging would be a problem, with turbo etc, what about gearbox issues?

knighty · 18 Jul 2006, 14:18 (Ref:1659158)

packaging a problem......naaah - easy peasy........you could use one coolant radiator in one side pod, and a chuffing great big intercooler for a real cold intake charge temperature in the other side pod.......the turbos are integrated into the manifold castings these days and are very compact........and the particulate filter would be of a very similar size to a conventional single seater silencer........no probs

andy97 · 20 Jul 2006, 12:07 (Ref:1660734)

How about Audi supporting a revised Formula Palmer Audi with a Tdi engine?

A good publicity vehicle on the back of the Le Mans success, and the Palmersport corporate cars might even be cheaper to run too.

knighty · 20 Jul 2006, 13:26 (Ref:1660782)

exaaaaaaaactly!!!!!!!!.....they are already powered by turbo 1.8's so already sound like wet farts........they have some pukka 4-pot oil burners in the VAG range ripe for the job, and as they are being used off-highway, they could use red-diesel and save a bom on fuel cost......I think they already run some FPA cars on LPG - so they must be up for a good old cost save.......and if they really want to push the boat out......pikey old filtered chip fat and heating oil will work just as well.......I think I'm in the wrong job

ss_collins · 20 Jul 2006, 15:43 (Ref:1660869)

Note that in speed events (at least under most rules) diesels get a rules break allowing you to run a big engine in a toy engine class

knighty · 21 Jul 2006, 08:17 (Ref:1661292)

hello mr collins!......please forgive my ignorance - whats a speed event?

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