Transferring HTPs

[Geraint Owen]

Just rung the MSA to enquire about transferring a set of HTPs to my name for a car I have just imported. The car in question has a new set of HTPs dated to end 2025. It appears that the FIA are introducing a new system whereby the car will need an entirely new application. Seems a bit harsh to me. I thought the whole point was they were transferable.

Be warned, they are trying to make it harder!

Geraint

[terence]

Every owner should just stand up and tell them to stuff it.HTPs are obviously just seen as a money spinner as they certainly dont seem to control the car spec's as originally intended.What would happen if no papers were presented at one of the so called FIA events, would it get cancelled?

[Mike Bell]

Assume the papers were issued by a National Association other than the MSA? From memory it has always been the case that papers have to be re-issued by the the new owner's Association when ownership moves to a different country.

However, I didn't appreciate that meant a new application when papers were still current! Makes the idea of selling a car with new papers not so clever if there is a chance buyer will be from another country. I do know of cars racing on their previously issued papers, despite having changed hands, scrutineers being more interested in the fact that they are current / correct rather than who issued them.... Probably depends on the significance of the car and importance of the event!

Or it may be cheaper to emigrate to the country that issued the papers?

[MGDavid]

where does any entry form ask for details of the car owner? The driver turns up with a car with valid HTP; he could be driving at the request of the owner, or borrowed it, or rented it, whatever. Who knows, who cares? Could this be another case of a European rule that other countries conveniently ignore while we Brits are too law-abiding for our own good?

[Will Nuthall]

Geraint - I would change it into your name in the issuing country but using the previous owners address (if they are happy with that) I can't see the address ever being used for anything anyway.
ps you'll be glad to hear a trip over to Monza is happening next year....

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Will Nuthall

Geraint - I would change it into your name in the issuing country but using the previous owners address (if they are happy with that) I can't see the address ever being used for anything anyway.
ps you'll be glad to hear a trip over to Monza is happening next year....

Will
That is a most cunning plan......
Now for a cunning plan to sort out getting to Monza......

Geraint

[Duddha]

Guys, may I just clarify the situation with FIA words ?

When a car changes its ‘nationality’, the new ASN must issue a HTP with its own form number (a new one thus), but the old Database number (FIA identity No.) remains and due to this, there is no extra fee for the transfer.

So all in all, HTP is transferred, still valid but using "new nationality" papers.

Best, Louis.

[275 GTB-4]

Thus really sounds like bureaucracy gone mad coupled with a money grab...shirley these dopes realise that whenever an original HTP is reissued and reissued again that it is an ideal opportunity to legitimise a fake and is open to abuse or whatever?

[zefarelly]

That makes sense

I always thought it was an International passport for a car, nothing to do with the owner . . .you go to a race and present the papers . . . . with the car. end of.

If we needed FiA papers for owners, now thats an entirely different issue!

Originally Posted by Duddha

Guys, may I just clarify the situation with FIA words ?

When a car changes its ‘nationality’, the new ASN must issue a HTP with its own form number (a new one thus), but the old Database number (FIA identity No.) remains and due to this, there is no extra fee for the transfer.

So all in all, HTP is transferred, still valid but using "new nationality" papers.

Best, Louis.

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Guys, may I just clarify the situation with FIA words ?

When a car changes its ‘nationality’, the new ASN must issue a HTP with its own form number (a new one thus), but the old Database number (FIA identity No.) remains and due to this, there is no extra fee for the transfer.

So all in all, HTP is transferred, still valid but using "new nationality" papers.

Best, Louis.

I am sorry Louis, but I am afraid that is not what is happening.

What you describe is what is in the rules, but the FIA are changing the rules apparently. They are now asking for the car to be reinspected at the change of ASN. The MSA have queried this with the FIA and are awaiting a response. I tried to press the MSA to simply follow the published rules to try and get it done before 2016 when I am sure the new rules will be written down, but they said effectively they are sitting on their hands until the FIA clarify

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

I tried to press the MSA to simply follow the published rules to try and get it done before 2016 when I am sure the new rules will be written down, but they said effectively they are sitting on their hands until the FIA clarify

Now isn't that a surprise! Our useless national governing body is far more interested in wasting our licence monies on appointing managers for this or that obscure branch of the sport and funding it by the sort of activity mentioned by Geraint. What a load of tw(i)ts they are.

[Moosehead]

Every time I consider going AppK something like this pops up. I really can't justify spending ££££'s just for a piece of paper so I can enter more 'prestigious' events.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

I am sorry Louis, but I am afraid that is not what is happening.

What you describe is what is in the rules, but the FIA are changing the rules apparently. They are now asking for the car to be reinspected at the change of ASN. The MSA have queried this with the FIA and are awaiting a response. I tried to press the MSA to simply follow the published rules to try and get it done before 2016 when I am sure the new rules will be written down, but they said effectively they are sitting on their hands until the FIA clarify

Originally Posted by morninggents

Now isn't that a surprise! Our useless national governing body is far more interested in wasting our licence monies on appointing managers for this or that obscure branch of the sport and funding it by the sort of activity mentioned by Geraint. What a load of tw(i)ts they are.

Well, keep me updated on the subject please.

I am part of the Financial Intelligence Agency......

Best, Louis.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by terence

Every owner should just stand up and tell them to stuff it.HTPs are obviously just seen as a money spinner as they certainly dont seem to control the car spec's as originally intended.What would happen if no papers were presented at one of the so called FIA events, would it get cancelled?

Agree..Lots of good club racing in the UK. i wonder what the Fia would do if everyone just entered non FIA events for a few months..Probably do UK motorsport the world of good!!

N.

[terence]

The point is that , ok, the blurb for an event may state "run to fia rules"
it will probably proudly display the fia logo as well.But FIA events for the cars that most run? Very few and far between, so if most entrants didn't present the "Fia HTP", would they get refused on the spot? I think EVERYONE knows the answer to that.I turned up at Spa 6hr three years running without my HTPs and it never caused a problem."Make sure you bring them next year"was about the harshest telling off I got.
If something isnt really what you lable it, dont sell it as something it isnt.

[Duddha]

May I just add to the general understanding that an FIA logo on an event only applies to the International Calendar registered race and this from period.

For example, when WSC Championship visited an event back in the 60s, 70s or 80s and up to now, only the FIA Championship races were FIA sanctioned, hence that the Spa 6 Hours for example run the Masters FIA Championship let's say, so only these races are subject to full FIA standard and strict enforcement of the HTP Papers. And same in period when WSC would run on the Nurburgring, the DRM, running to German rules was not concerned.

Adding another statement is important, HTPs are today mainly enforced by series or promoter as they say they are "sort of" running to Appendix K ruling but in situ, it's pretty much different.

While people, do or do not agree with the system, I was 9 or 10 by the time the proper and so-called FIA trophy for GT & TC falled appart in the early 2000s, a sad loss which happened because of the arrival of a promoter only looking at numbers...

However, what I remember is that cars were before that properly scrutineered back then, some of you might remember how terrible it was to face the scrutineers at Nürburgring... There was far less cheating/funny cars because the scrutineering was good and rules were back then, meant to be enforced. Not just promoters and organizers saying, "we're appendix k" but allowing stuff to sort of make the number and please customers as it is today.

I believe that to stand strong, it is a matter of taking the risk to enforce something, it might not be good in terms of numbers and finance at the beginning, of course, but in the end, stand strong and once people understand it, it works out better because there is a common line. We've ended in a world of historic racing which is more of "customer historic racing".

I walk the HTP line every day and I'm just unhappy to see historic cars ending up with funny aeros, or funny engine and drivetrain or being built by people not willing to understand history but only willing to sell and/or race performance and seeing the "good old boys" walking out of the sport because of some practice and cars being "funny".

HTP is not the sole problem, performance and how cars are now today handled, build and developped is a far bigger problem and maybe it's the reason why HTPs are getting more and more complicated to get... Just saying...

By the way, national/club papers exist and are eligible for some races within the issuing country but as we've witnessed, when someone builts a d-type with carbon fibre bodywork or full electronic injection and single throttle body on a Group 44 XJS Trans-Am car, is this really the spirit and what we want as historic racing ? I am happy for them to stay national/club cars, it's their fun and toys after all but they should race where this is allowed.

[Duddha]

The thing to remember about Appendix K is that it exist to ensure one particular aspect as well, a level playing field. If Appendix K didn’t exist or is not applied, it becomes modern racing with cars that tend to look historic.

A good read - here.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Duddha

May I just add to the general understanding that an FIA logo on an event only applies to the International Calendar registered race and this from period.

For example, when WSC Championship visited an event back in the 60s, 70s or 80s and up to now, only the FIA Championship races were FIA sanctioned, hence that the Spa 6 Hours for example run the Masters FIA Championship let's say, so only these races are subject to full FIA standard and strict enforcement of the HTP Papers. And same in period when WSC would run on the Nurburgring, the DRM, running to German rules was not concerned.

Adding another statement is important, HTPs are today mainly enforced by series or promoter as they say they are "sort of" running to Appendix K ruling but in situ, it's pretty much different.

While people, do or do not agree with the system, I was 9 or 10 by the time the proper and so-called FIA trophy for GT & TC falled appart in the early 2000s, a sad loss which happened because of the arrival of a promoter only looking at numbers...

However, what I remember is that cars were before that properly scrutineered back then, some of you might remember how terrible it was to face the scrutineers at Nürburgring... There was far less cheating/funny cars because the scrutineering was good and rules were back then, meant to be enforced. Not just promoters and organizers saying, "we're appendix k" but allowing stuff to sort of make the number and please customers as it is today.

I believe that to stand strong, it is a matter of taking the risk to enforce something, it might not be good in terms of numbers and finance at the beginning, of course, but in the end, stand strong and once people understand it, it works out better because there is a common line. We've ended in a world of historic racing which is more of "customer historic racing".

I walk the HTP line every day and I'm just unhappy to see historic cars ending up with funny aeros, or funny engine and drivetrain or being built by people not willing to understand history but only willing to sell and/or race performance and seeing the "good old boys" walking out of the sport because of some practice and cars being "funny".

HTP is not the sole problem, performance and how cars are now today handled, build and developped is a far bigger problem and maybe it's the reason why HTPs are getting more and more complicated to get... Just saying...

By the way, national/club papers exist and are eligible for some races within the issuing country but as we've witnessed, when someone builts a d-type with carbon fibre bodywork or full electronic injection and single throttle body on a Group 44 XJS Trans-Am car, is this really the spirit and what we want as historic racing ? I am happy for them to stay national/club cars, it's their fun and toys after all but they should race where this is allowed.

Not Fia Legal…. Yet runs its original Brazed Chassis, original body, Original rear uprights and Quills, Trunnions at front.



This one seems to be Fia legal these days….



Me thinks something must be wrong with the international rules when race preparers are forced to build cars that look like this one to be able to race in period!!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Duddha

The thing to remember about Appendix K is that it exist to ensure one particular aspect as well, a level playing field. If Appendix K didn’t exist or is not applied, it becomes modern racing with cars that tend to look historic.[/URL]

Unfortunately what you are saying about competitors is true, the problem is it seems to be happening anyway.
Some drivers interest in a car appears to only go as far as what events will it get me in, such people presumably have no interest in whether the car is anything like it was originally.
Many of the preparation companies (and seemingly FIA employees) are too young to know how historic cars were in period and don't have the time/resources/inclination to do the research.

An approach based on setting out the appropriate specification for a particular model or class of car (as with homologated cars) might involve a lot less bureaucracy. It might shift the emphasis on checking to the series scrutineers but they should have a greater knowledge and understanding of that particular type of car anyway.

The current situation where each car is treated individually seems to involve a lot of unnecessary duplication (not to mention education of "inspectors") which must increase the expense and cause delays.

Or the FIA could stick to the logistical issues and leave the choice of cars up to race organisers, the public and competitors would then have the ultimate decision in what is acceptable!

[zefarelly]

Unfortunately App K and any other rules merely state the obvious, and keep moving with safety legislation.

More thorough preparation specialists will explore any advantage within this window.

equally, original homologation papers are vague in places, ie, where wheels are located withing the bodyshell . . .dimensions appeared from door corners to wheel centres later on, but not generally pre '66 . . . so they shift, as does the weight distribution.

use of modern materials is commonplace in engines, but also now on drive train components. It has to be done or the standard parts will fall apart. It would be cheaper and easier to peg back the engines, but, as SImon H once said here, we can't unlearn what we've already learned.

At least until we're too old to care. Which is were the retired pro's come in and get paid to say that's how it was!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Unfortunately what you are saying about competitors is true, the problem is it seems to be happening anyway.
Some drivers interest in a car appears to only go as far as what events will it get me in, such people presumably have no interest in whether the car is anything like it was originally.
Many of the preparation companies (and seemingly FIA employees) are too young to know how historic cars were in period and don't have the time/resources/inclination to do the research.

An approach based on setting out the appropriate specification for a particular model or class of car (as with homologated cars) might involve a lot less bureaucracy. It might shift the emphasis on checking to the series scrutineers but they should have a greater knowledge and understanding of that particular type of car anyway.

The current situation where each car is treated individually seems to involve a lot of unnecessary duplication (not to mention education of "inspectors") which must increase the expense and cause delays.

Or the FIA could stick to the logistical issues and leave the choice of cars up to race organisers, the public and competitors would then have the ultimate decision in what is acceptable!

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Unfortunately App K and any other rules merely state the obvious, and keep moving with safety legislation.

More thorough preparation specialists will explore any advantage within this window.

equally, original homologation papers are vague in places, ie, where wheels are located withing the bodyshell . . .dimensions appeared from door corners to wheel centres later on, but not generally pre '66 . . . so they shift, as does the weight distribution.

use of modern materials is commonplace in engines, but also now on drive train components. It has to be done or the standard parts will fall apart. It would be cheaper and easier to peg back the engines, but, as SImon H once said here, we can't unlearn what we've already learned.

At least until we're too old to care. Which is were the retired pro's come in and get paid to say that's how it was!

Thanks for your comments and truly we are working at getting the system work better, faster and let's say stronger, Rome wasn't built in a day, but we will get there. Regulations are never perfect and will never be, loopholes exist and that's part of motor sport but well, I like to think that with a bit of education, thinking and hard work, it won't get out of control too much.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Duddha

May I just add to the general understanding that an FIA logo on an event only applies to the International Calendar registered race and this from period.

For example, when WSC Championship visited an event back in the 60s, 70s or 80s and up to now, only the FIA Championship races were FIA sanctioned, hence that the Spa 6 Hours for example run the Masters FIA Championship let's say, so only these races are subject to full FIA standard and strict enforcement of the HTP Papers. And same in period when WSC would run on the Nurburgring, the DRM, running to German rules was not concerned.

Adding another statement is important, HTPs are today mainly enforced by series or promoter as they say they are "sort of" running to Appendix K ruling but in situ, it's pretty much different.

While people, do or do not agree with the system, I was 9 or 10 by the time the proper and so-called FIA trophy for GT & TC falled appart in the early 2000s, a sad loss which happened because of the arrival of a promoter only looking at numbers...

However, what I remember is that cars were before that properly scrutineered back then, some of you might remember how terrible it was to face the scrutineers at Nürburgring... There was far less cheating/funny cars because the scrutineering was good and rules were back then, meant to be enforced. Not just promoters and organizers saying, "we're appendix k" but allowing stuff to sort of make the number and please customers as it is today.

I believe that to stand strong, it is a matter of taking the risk to enforce something, it might not be good in terms of numbers and finance at the beginning, of course, but in the end, stand strong and once people understand it, it works out better because there is a common line. We've ended in a world of historic racing which is more of "customer historic racing".

I walk the HTP line every day and I'm just unhappy to see historic cars ending up with funny aeros, or funny engine and drivetrain or being built by people not willing to understand history but only willing to sell and/or race performance and seeing the "good old boys" walking out of the sport because of some practice and cars being "funny".

HTP is not the sole problem, performance and how cars are now today handled, build and developped is a far bigger problem and maybe it's the reason why HTPs are getting more and more complicated to get... Just saying...

By the way, national/club papers exist and are eligible for some races within the issuing country but as we've witnessed, when someone builts a d-type with carbon fibre bodywork or full electronic injection and single throttle body on a Group 44 XJS Trans-Am car, is this really the spirit and what we want as historic racing ? I am happy for them to stay national/club cars, it's their fun and toys after all but they should race where this is allowed.

Goodness me! Sad to read....not trying to be the harbinger of doom Louis, but it sounds like the horse has already bolted!

[terence]

Sad but true GTB.Quite honestly I really cannot see a time when the current issues of compliance will get fully sorted.The issue of non compliance has been allowed to go on for so long.Will the owners of the cars with grossly oversized engines want thier cars to go slower?
I personally see GW as the real starting point for really bent car cars being allowed on the grid.Grey Lady comes to mind, obviously not the only hotrod out there, but until then, cheating wasn't so bleading obvious.

[zefarelly]

The Gray Lady was a bit of fun, and yes, a ridiculous hot rod, but the 50's saloons have always been a bit of a blank canvass, although only for Goodwood and its spectacle, most of the regular HRDC cars run to a pragmatic set of regulations and are generally well adhered to ( I've built a fair few engines across the series and never a bent one, the engines aren't generally the weak link!)

Engines in many series, U2TC for example, are, I think, generally correct, and relatively level, the focus now seems to be on handling . . . another issue entirely, what I always notice is that for a mass produced production car you rarely see 2 the same! There are plenty of accurate genuine original cars out there so I believe its time the FiA measured a few of those and nailed a few datum in the ground.

THere are also lots of dimensions in the homologation papers of various cars which seem to get ignored and have been overuled, or rendered irrelevant by App K.

I haven't read J or K for a while, but J is far tighter on what was allowed. ie nothing if it didnt specifically say so.

[FISCracer]

Like Terry I think we should just ignore the FIA and HTPs

Lets face it many FIA cars do not comply with their papers except on the day they are inspected and there is no eligibility scutineering at events, so cheating is rife.

In addition to the FIA money grab for new papers, many owners are no finding their cars require substantial work to comply to 'revised' homologations that have never been discussed or gone through due process. All this will do is to reduce grids and drive costs up for race organisers and competitors.

I have 5 FIA cars and only one has new, current papers. Those were issued earlier this year as a condition of sale before I imported it. If they seriously expect me to pay again for another inspection, I have a suggestion as to where they can put their papers ;-)