Help: Indy Car indentification!!

[kurtiejjj]

Hi everyone I need some help from a few F1 anoraks . I have been offered an 1980s f1 car in bits by a 'dealer' for an incredibly cheap price, it doesn't have an engine yet but that not really a problem, yet. What is a problem is that no-one actually knows what make it is! :roll: Including me and the seller (who is probaply selling it for someone else, still have discuss this with him). However here is a (not so clear) picture of it:

http://www.british-sitcoms.com/F180s.jpg

It has a carbon fibre monocoque as it seems and the body seems quite curvy. Does anyone here know which marquee, type it is?
It's a real barn-find as you can see, a restorers wet dream and also mine when it turns out to be a genuine F1 car 8) !
So do let me know, would really appreciate it!

Ps: There is perhaps a possibility that it is a an Indy-car, of which I have know knowledge at all, but I do suspect they didn't use carbon monocoques around that time in the US.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Can one of the moderators re-size the picture so that we can see what the heck this car is?

Thanks!

[kurtiejjj]

Sorry for some reason I can't edit the post anymore so sorry for the slightly oversized pic. hopefully a mod can do something about this!

[Davhut]

LET THE (guessing) GAMES BEGIN!

[macca]

It looks from the huge central fuel tank to be about 1982-83; does it have mounting points for a DFV engine?

Is there anything on the dashboard to give a clue?

Paul M

[Frank de Jong]

I don't see much carbon fibre - and the rollbar looks a bit thin...

[funformula]

Regarding the monocoque, it´s looking pretty much like a Ensign/Theodore F1 from 1982/83. But the sideplate on the fueltank and the large one-piece cockpitcover don´t match with this suggestion.
The fueltank sideplate is characteristical for Indy Cars, so maybe it´s a early 80´s Lola or March or something like that.

[kurtiejjj]

Thanks for all your suggestions. I was thinking myself to about an indy-car,the March 82 body does look the same but it didn't have a carbon/alu monocoque as didn't other indy cars of that time. (bad english I know) However as this thing seems to have huge side pods it must have been an early 80s car, isn't it? As I suspected the seller is selling it for someone else, so he couldn't provide a lot of information yet, he will give me more information in the days to come. So fingers crossed it is an F1 car.

It does seem to have some similarities with an arrows A5. Perhaps it was a test car as the body is plain white.

[jjordan]

The tail looks like one of Gurney's Eagles from the mid 80's (?) with the BLAT (boundry layer somethin, somethin, technology). Pretty cars. Had a big wide flat tray behind the engine and a single post wing that was small due to the downforce of the tray.

[Davhut]

Refueling plugs on both sides of the fuel cell would indicate an Indy car, since road and ovals each require specifically different sides.

[Davhut]

A little bit of PhotoShop sleuthing indicates this is NOT a full carbon tub, but an aluminum tub with a fibre top. Pretty common in the CART chassis of the early to mid 1980s. Wing looks rather like low downforce as well. Body work has vague recollections to the Theodores that Bruno Guacamole drove.
Also that rusty old turbo under the tub kind of suggests maybe an Indy car as well... although I suppose it could have fallen off the lawnmower!
I hope it's real inexpensive... you remember the joke about the two happiest days in the life of a Jaguar owner?

[Thundersports]

Christ that's a project and a half! The other question is the bodywork off that car? It does indeed look Theordore they were my first impressions maybe some kind of canned Indy project?

[rcarr]

To me, its shouting out RAM.

Its just a hunch.

The Skoal Bandit one.

[allenbrown]

After thorough examination of the photo and careful consideration of all the F1 and CART cars of the period, I can honestly say I haven't a clue.

Are you sure the top section is carbon? It looks like mid-1970s Formica to me.

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

After thorough examination of the photo and careful consideration of all the F1 and CART cars of the period, I can honestly say I haven't a clue.

Are you sure the top section is carbon? It looks like mid-1970s Formica to me.

Allen

Trouble is everyone is assuming all though bits belong to the same car!

I think they were the left-overs from a season of rebuilding various F1 and CART vehicles of various backgrounds and years!

Personally I wouldn't touch this pile of junk with a barge pole, which incidentally I think I have spotted at the back!

[davyboy]

The roll hoop looks very like the one used on the Theodore N183 Grand Prix car, however from what I can see in the pictures, the engine and sidepod cowling are different. I have a print of the N183 with its bodywork off, but its very poor quality. Below is one of Tom O'Leary driving it in Mondello in the mid 1980s.

http://www.conconnolly.com/cutenews/..._1/Scan018.jpg

In terms of the detective work on this :
o Are there any details of any numbers, letters, scrutineering pass stickers etc... anywhere on the tub or any ancillary parts ?
o Can you scrape any of the paint off the bodywork that may give a clue to period livery ?
o What size/make are the wheels ? Are there any tyres in the pile ?
o Is there an engine [full or short], exhaust/turbo parts, gearbox casing, transmission etc... and/or any markings on them ?

Unless you've very deep pockets, I'd strongly advise against taking this project on. Restoration of a GP or Indycar is very expensive.

[funformula]

Regarding the monocoque I´m almost sure it´s a Theodore Indy Car. The difference to the Theodore F1 tub are the refueling plugs at the side of the monocoque an the fixing of the roll hoop. It´s fixed with rivets instead of screws. The mounting-position for the whishbones and the pull-rod are exactly as they are on the 1983 Theodore Indy Car offered at race-car.com.
I´m not sure about the bodywork, can´t say what it is.

[kurtiejjj]

Got a reply from the seller with more information and it seems it is indeed a theodore, from the seller:

"chassis plate says advance composites 1752 group ref number 014267 number 1,made for theodore and supplied to sid taylor team manager of theodore at the time in 1980's"

Advance composites is british isn't it? However would they have built an indy car in the UK. Number are interesting though perhaps it was some kind of prototype car which was abandonend when the team went bust.

Help!

[allenbrown]

From memory, MN019 and MN020 were the T83s so the T84 was presumably MN021. This tub could have been a prototype prior to MN019 being built.

I saw one of those cars as a dusty show car somewhere but can't recall where now.

[Davhut]

Dusty show car, this may have once been. Real dusty...small show, as in "Can I show you my dusty race car?"

[kurtiejjj]

It says in an article on grandprix.com:

"The team shut down at the end of the year with Mo Nunn planning to build an Indycar."

Could this be the beginning of this car?

The car is pretty complete with all uprights, wing and a lot of other parts, only no backside though.

It turns out this car used a Hewland FGA gearbox so it apperantly used an F1 gearbox as stated on this page: http://www.race-cars.com/utility/hewlandr.htm

Makes it pretty difficult really, I will ask the seller if could tell me a bit more about the exhausts on the picture and there are some turbos lying around, which don't really look F1ish, anyone has a pic of a Cosworth DFX turbocharger.

[allenbrown]

grandprix.com is being a bit too GP-centric. The Theodore team moved into CART in 1983, as did a number of the top road-racing teams in the US. CART was the hottest thing going in 1983 - seems so long ago now...

[Davhut]

The turbo on the ground (also to mention some of the tubing in the box) are reminiscent of CART era DFX turbos of the early/mid 1980s.
I'd ask for a bunch of new dig photos of individual parts/pieces and details. I'm reasonably certain this is at least a tub of Indy Car vintage.

[kurtiejjj]

As it turns out the exhausts and turbos are not included, seems a bit dodgy but I will wait till the owner comes up with some new photos.

[Davhut]

This is just a thought, kurtiejjj, but if he was only willing to sell the tub, it would make a hell of a basis for a one off hill climb special or, here in the States, an autocross racer or perhaps a Bonneville Speed attempt vehicle? All kinds of possibilities for a tub that was in good shape, not bent, cracked, split, deformed.
Keep us updated!