Do you really know the Safety Car Rules

[b1ackcr0w]

Ok, Be honest1 Do you really know how to operate the flags under a safty car deployment or the black and yellow?

I know some clubs have made a big effort to try and help us learn. But I wonder if some more work is needed in this area?

Also, The fine people who run the BTCC are trying to do away with the myriad of different Safety Car proceedures issued at touring car meetings. But I personally feel they need to put a bit more urgency into it.0

I'm happy to shut my trap if there's a big enough vote saying everbody else knows exactly what they're doing. But if we don't know, then maybe we should be asking for more help?

[EvilPumpkin]

I know how they operate in Ireland because we've done a lot of work on this over the last year - I believe it's similar in the UK.

Basically:

When SC comes onto circuit, each post to display an SC board and a yellow flag. Flag is steady when the SC is not in your sector and goes waved when it is.

Once SC goes in and all cars cross the start finish, each car displays a steady green for 1 lap.

We don't use the quartered flag anymore, so that's a non-issue, but IIRC our rule was the same - steady out of sector, waved when in sector.

Good 2 see you again BC - where ye been!

[KayBee]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
I know how they operate in Ireland because we've done a lot of work on this over the last year - I believe it's similar in the UK.

Basically:

When SC comes onto circuit, each post to display an SC board and a yellow flag. Flag is steady when the SC is not in your sector and goes waved when it is.

Once SC goes in and all cars cross the start finish, each car displays a steady green for 1 lap.

We don't use the quartered flag anymore, so that's a non-issue, but IIRC our rule was the same - steady out of sector, waved when in sector.

Good 2 see you again BC - where ye been!

Not necessarily; depends on which Championship it is and that also governs the green proceedure as well.

If the yellow is waved when the SC is in your Sector how do you indicate where the incident is? Most circuits I have been to only issue you with one yellow flag.

In my opinion there should be one set of rules for all Championships where the SC used and I would like to see a dedicated SC flag introduced.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by KayBee
Not necessarily; depends on which Championship it is and that also governs the green proceedure as well.

If the yellow is waved when the SC is in your Sector how do you indicate where the incident is? Most circuits I have been to only issue you with one yellow flag.

In my opinion there should be one set of rules for all Championships where the SC used and I would like to see a dedicated SC flag introduced.

Hello from Downunder!!

Here we seem to have a uniform approach to the deployment of the "Safty" Car.

firstly, Race Control calls for "Safety Car board and Yellow Flags" all flag points.

So the SC boards are immediately put out accompanied by a waved yellow (for as long as the safety car is circulating).

Race control advise that "Lights are off on the safety car" which means the obstruction has been been cleared and the Safety car is about to return to the pits to let all hell break loose again!!

When the freight train approaches the Start/Finish line, race control calls "Racing" or "Race Start, Progressive Green, All points"

Then each Flag Point withdraws its Yellows and SC boards and starts waving Green when the preceding point goes green.

Everyone waves green until the cars come around again!!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by KayBee
Not necessarily; depends on which Championship it is and that also governs the green proceedure as well.

If the yellow is waved when the SC is in your Sector how do you indicate where the incident is? Most circuits I have been to only issue you with one yellow flag.

Well I did say in Ireland and just that it was similar in the UK - not the same.

How do you indicate where the incident is.....well you don't. Unless you're looking particularly grim and they're moving slow enough to see you.......

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
...firstly, Race Control calls for "Safety Car board and Yellow Flags" all flag points.

Race control advise that "Lights are off on the safety car"
When the freight train approaches the Start/Finish line, race control calls "Racing" or "Race Start, Progressive Green, All points"

Ah - there's our problem then....In the UK Race control don't tell us anything!

[jase]

Not so much for flagging, but have run Pit exit for so many meetings I know our side of it.

[TwoSheds]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
...

Once SC goes in and all cars cross the start finish, each car displays a steady green for 1 lap.

...

Is the green flag standard equipment for cars in Ireland? Do they hold it steady or wave it?

[EvilPumpkin]

ROTFLMAO - freudian slip methinks

Actually, there are one or two cars I'm seriously thinking of equipping with blue flags. I'll tie them onto the front of the car and when they wave in the wind, then they'll know they're being overtaken....save me a job....

[b1ackcr0w]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin


Good 2 see you again BC - where ye been!

I've been lurking around - Last 6 months seem to have been very busy for some reason so I've not been able to post as much, But I'm still here - nice to see you too EPW

[b1ackcr0w]

Hmm - it's early doors, but it seems that around 75% of us are either confused or completely in the dark about what we are doing.

I wonder to whom we should call for help from?

[Mark Mitchell]

I was talking to a Clerk Of The Course last season who was responsible for one of the support races in the BTCC package.
He was even confused as to the SC regs. The regs for his session - FF's were totally different from Clio's, who I guess would have been different again from the BTCC.
So I think the answer must be to have just ONE set of regs, applicable to all and written up in the Blue Book

[EvilPumpkin]

If the Irish guys go and race in Kirkistown, they're obliged to abide by UK flag rules - including the quartered flag (with some rather nasty consequences the last time as the drivers didn't know what it meant). So how is it that an Irish class has to abide by UK flag rules when at a UK circuit, but that in the UK, different classes have their own flag rules?

It does seem strange to have different flag rules for every class - I can understand having to modify if you're dealing with a "travelling" class - they need standardised flag rules at every circuit - but for classes that race 99% of the time in the UK, why would they need their own flag rules?

Of course, if it's a FIA class you're into another can of worms completely.....

[Flagman]

Also, The fine people who run the BTCC are trying to do away with the myriad of different Safety Car proceedures issued at touring car meetings

Seeing as they were the ones who brought in the multitude of differing rules to start with I see no chance of any success there then

[Bob Pearson]

Well, reading this has accounted for a great deal. I have been in a couple of black and yellow quartered situations when I have had the distinct impression that neither us drivers nor you marshals have known what the rules were. Conversations after the race have demonstrated that we were confused, I am relieved to know that we wren't alone.
Our formula specifically asks for the black and yellow quarter to not be used on safety grounds and I haven't seen anything over the last few seasons to change that feeling.
I think safety cars and black and yellow quarters should only be used in formulas were pits to car radio is allowed so reducing the unnecesary heavy accidents which occur when the cars slow down
It is easy to say the drivers are all blind, stupid or whatever description is chosen, but the frequency of these incidents is so great that it is no longer appropriate to keep blaming the driver.
I've just read this back through, it sounds like I am moaning at you, sorry about that I didn't mean it that way.

[EvilPumpkin]

I don't think anyone is blaming drivers for anything Bob. The situation I mentioned was to illustrate how silly it is to go around changing flag rules on drivers for no good reason, not having a go at the drivers at all.

What we're trying to get to is what SC procedures we all have, do we all know what they are and would it make more sense to have a national/global procedure with maybe the odd exception rather than the rainbow coalition we seem to have at the moment.

[Bob Pearson]

Your absolutely right, there should be a standard proceedure. Unfortunately the drivers often do get blamed when, they had no chance of complying accident free. November's Winter series at Brands for Formula Renault was a typical example, the PA had a lot of comments based on lack of knowledge.
On the subject of proceedures, are you people supposed to give us any different signal on the last lap of the black and yellow period, so we know that racing will resume next time we cross the start line.
As I said earlier I have been in a couple of these situations and we find ourselves all taking a run out of the last corner in case the race is about to go green then desperately avoiding each other when we find it hasn't.

[b1ackcr0w]

Bob,

I think we just want to do the best job we can for you guys, I'm pretty sure all you want to is race without crashing into stuff, and understand the rules of the game.

No offence was taken, in fact I took the inference that you had sympathy with our problems and want the same outcome.

[JimW]

Our formula specifically asks for the black and yellow quarter to not be used on safety grounds and I haven't seen anything over the last few seasons to change that feeling.

I'm a bit puzzled by this. I thought that the main problems with b/y were:

A. when the leader failed to react sufficiently (or even at all in one hilarious case) and those behind dropped back from the leader.

B. When the midfield runners slowed so much that they were caught by the leading group.

The point of a b/y is to neutralise racing (but without a course car) so that marshals on trackside can deal with something which:

a. Can't be left as it is too dangerous to drivers
b. Can't be cleared by marshals when cars are proceeding at racing speeds as it is too dangerous for them.

Is Bob saying that drivers behind a car cannot cope safely if the car in front slows to 50 mph in a sensible way? From the bank, that does not seem to me to be an unreasonable requirement but that may only demonstrate how easy things look to the spectator!

As someone who fairly often needs some breathing space in which to work either with course marshals to clear things away or as rescue crew to deal with more serious problems, I had thought that b/y was quite a good way of giving that pause in competition but without loosing the race, boring the spectators with the usual interminable seeming lack of action at car meetings or running into moonlit races.

Does the same problem occur with safety cars?

I think safety cars and black and yellow quarters should only be used in formulas where pits to car radio is allowed so reducing the unnecessary heavy accidents which occur when the cars slow down.

OK I see that he puts s/c in the same bracket. But surely we only have ASCAR racing where there is any kind of organised radio comms. We could not rely on ad hoc arrangements.

So it is back to lots more red flags which I think would be a pity. Remember that if we need to get a rescue unit working we usually cannot wait for even the best organised b/y or s/c time to elapse. 90 seconds from incident to intervention is a commonly quoted maximum time.

Regards

Jim

[Woolley]

I voted not 100% sure, not because I don't know them - I do - the problem is which one is being used for which race. I am completely familiar with at least 4 variations, and have seen a case where 3 adjacent posts were using a different version, and promptly swapped when they realised. As a result all 3 were still different, but not the same as before, until the observers had read the instructions and came up with a common system. It is the differences that are confusing, and I'll make the plea publicly - PLEASE MAY WE HAVE ONE COMMON SET OF REGS FOR ALL CATEGORIES. End of rant.

Actually, not quite. B/Y flags. IMO the problem is that they are dispayed at the start line, meaning the leaders arrive at the straight and then react, the drivers behind them having no idea why at first. If this is in the early laps, the problem is excacerbated. These flags should act like reds, or yellows on an oval. Simultaneous display at all posts (or at least both ways round the circuit) to neutralize the race quickly and safely.

[wickedwitch]

Irish SC Regs quoted above are almost correct but not quite.

The SC board first goes out in ea sector only when SC first reaches that part of circuit. Waved yellow while SC in sector and steady while not (unless other cause for waved yellow in sector is also present). Green flag shows SC sit now over. Quarter flag "rarely" used in ROI anyomore but it's not gone away and if used it refers to Safety car procedure with or without actual safety car.

The Green Book doesn't full and clear SC procedures defined, as such, and it seems that the CoC has power to make adjustments to above on a whim - but having said that, the above is the procedure that is taught to MRMCI flag marshals.

Kaybee, your question on how the incident that caused the safety car situation is indicated if waved yellows are automatically displayed at every post is the same question (and argument) that I've put forward many times. OK, so the safety car situation means that all cars should back off and not overtake and proceed with caution anyway - but in the real world of motorsport we really need to give added indication of where incident is. In the past we used the quarter flag which could then be supplemented with a yellow in the sector with the incident, but we changed reg's to conform with most international regs so we now require a yelow flag and a SC board. I preferred the quarter flag and I suppose that is an issue for further debate.

Other issues we have had is regulations governing who can drive safety car, for what purpose it may be deployed and the speed of same in relation to need for all cars to bunch up behind before lights can go off. Has anyone else encountered particular issues with Safety Cars?

[KayBee]

Wickedwitch!! You and me are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I know that the Battenberg is used instead of using a dedicated car going round the track but I can't see why the Battenberg can't be used in conjunction with an SC board to save this yellow ambiguity.

The white flag has two uses so why not the Battenberg?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Woolley

Actually, not quite. B/Y flags. IMO the problem is that they are dispayed at the start line, meaning the leaders arrive at the straight and then react, the drivers behind them having no idea why at first. If this is in the early laps, the problem is excacerbated. These flags should act like reds, or yellows on an oval. Simultaneous display at all posts (or at least both ways round the circuit) to neutralize the race quickly and safely.

The following statement is purely my own opinion and in no way aportions any blame toward any club, official, volunteer, venue or driver.

I was flagging on Post 1 at Mallory a couple of years ago for 750 MC. It was as I was displaying the Black and Yellow to the leader that the the incident happened. 3rd and 4th (I stand to be corrected) were very close to each other coming out of Devil's Elbow and were intent on each other. 3rd suddenly saw the cars in front had stood on their brakes, 4th had no warning when he hit a suddenly slowing 3rd. Yes, the flag was being displayed at the startline but the first that these two cars knew of it, IMO, was when 3rd was about to run into 2nd. The result is unfortunately known to many of us.

My point is to agree with Woolley. If the race needs to be "shutdown", "slowed", "put under control", call it what you like, then it should happen immediately at ALL posts!!!

None of this "let's wait for the leader and then see what happens".

SHUT IT DOWN AND DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is to EVERYONE'S benefit.

Drivers safer
Marshals safer
Racing starts again sooner, speccys happy.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by JimW

The point of a b/y is to neutralise racing (but without a course car) so that marshals on trackside can deal with something which:

Jim, I'm not sure what issues have been encountered elsewhere, but the biggest problem I've seen with Irish classes seems to be that they are a) not really sure what a safe speed is and b) unsure what the flag means.

If there was more driver training available - including an "advanced" class to advise the drivers who are likely to be leading the train, I think this might go a long way to addressing both those problems.

Bob you might be able to answer this question - with the exception of an exam and a driver briefing, what training do drivers normally get? Has anyone ever sat down with your class and run through this procedure and what's expected from you?

Originally posted by JimW

Does the same problem occur with safety cars?

As WW has noted above, there are also issues with Safety Cars. I don't know what training the drivers receive, but there isn't always the best consistency between one driver and another and this can lead to confusion, both for marshals and drivers. Then of course there is the age old issue of back markers flooring their cars to catch up with the train.....

[Bob Pearson]

Jim W,
Most of my arguement is backed up by the dreadful occurance at Malllory referred to by crazystu. That incident alone is sufficient for me to say "don't use it". I can understand your liking of it, it makes your job easier and safer. The harsh reality is that it is easier and safer for us if we don't have it. No-one commented on my confusion over when the b/y period is going to end, with a safety car it does a lap with the lights off and so drivers are ready for the re-start. What are the provisions for transmitting that information in a b/y situation?
I agree, lots of red flags are a pain, sometimes I think they are used too readily. But if the choice is red flags or the dangers of riding over wheels in a b/y situation I will settle for the red flags.