ARP F3 is REAL RACING

[maddogf3]

Some of you were cruel enough to say that they expected the ARP championship to fall apart after last year's episodes.

As a race engineer for one of the private teams currently in the ARP championship I have made a few observations.

Firstly RIP should stand for RACING IN IT'S PUREST. We came as a team who had previously competed with a modicum of success in the NW ff1600 and therefore expected to be on, or certainly around, podium finishes every time we were out. Competing at that level wasn't exactly cheap - tyres for one became a big budget and fixing a constantly wearing out car became a high priority.

We purchased the F3 car with, what was described as a winning pedigree; it had won the ARP championship a few years back. (I would never buy a championship-winning car, as they are usually worn out and knackered -- they have to be, to have won. Cars that are paraded around midfield are brilliant; never stressed and never driven hard enough, even a smacked up one can be straightened.)

We were told at the time ‘…you should have no problem, they are all old men…’ how wrong was that statement. Admittedly, most are over 40, any private entrants spending the amount of time and money to stay anywhere near the front has to be reasonably financially successful.

We were at the back of the grid for our fist few outings, the car, which we now realised was worn out, broke and the tires were old, hard and worn. From first to last as they say!

We didn't give up. I started to read books on ground force, (you FF1600 lads should do it, it would open your eyes, had I done this in our days in FF1600, I would have discovered that, had I done a simple mod to our Reynard FF1600, this would have given us 200 rpm at Silverstone).

What was once a past winner was now hopelessly out classed. It took me 12 months to catch up, gradually whittling the deficit down from 4 seconds, to 3, to 2.5 seconds, now it was hard.

Our car was 15 years old and competing against three year-old, up to date technology from Dallara. As you all know, it’s a make that is up with the best. Anyway I am not telling you too much, but we got that down to 1- 1.5 seconds on an average length circuit.

Then along came Mr Winslow! On every test session he did, I had the watch on him. He wasn’t that much faster, 0.3 of a second, or so. But where he was quicker was in qualifying and the race. Why was this? I asked myself. I started reading again and it soon becomes apparent that the difference is (and I don't care what any one else says) HE WANTS THE WIN - sometimes at all costs. Like any other, younger driver, they still don't care about cause and effect. The older drivers have a lot more experience and want to go home safely.

James was like a breath of fresh air to ARP. Yes he did ruffle feathers. Yes he did try and intimidate other drivers. That, in my view, is all part of it and ARP will go on from strength to strength, that is, if the hierarchy use the publicity Winslow got it, to its best advantage. Even though they did chuck him out James, will tell you himself, he's learned a lot from the Oldie's. They may not be in their 20's, but they are quick. Don’t under estimate them. Some of them are ex formula Ford champions anyway and they still don't win in ARP. Makes you think doesn't it?

Those of you that are technical should take a close look at the cars. They are superbly engineered, infinitely adjustable and not just a case of STICK NEW TIRES ON and we will win today. To compete near the top they have to be set differently for every circuit and when it rains it all kicks off again with wings, tires and ride-height corrections. All this to me is exciting stuff, one never sits sill at the track.

You have to remember the fact that Formula 1 likes to take its protégées from Formula 3. It’s nice to think that you are driving a car that has proved to be a stepping-stone to the top. I know we have inferior rubber and a restricted air box, but what a pedigree!

It makes us all wonder what could have happened if we were all 20 years younger. James was, and they kicked him out. He certainly was my benchmark.

Did you know, a Master Class car can be had for less than £10,000, perhaps as low as about £7,000 and it can be made very competitive once again, as Winlsow proved. The previous user of the Masters class car that Winslow used in 2004 spent, I believe, £40,000 for a 3 year-old A Class car. He did go quicker, by about 1 or 2 seconds per lap, no more, he too had new tyres for every race and tuition. But doing it this way he spent so much money that his car is now up for sale for this season.

And oh, I forgot, while you lot are complaining that ARP F3 isn’t competitive, in Formula Ford 1600, there are only usually 4 cars with any chance of winning, all the others are 2 seconds behind, and not worth timing!

So get with it, buy a Masters Class F3 car for about £7,000, read some books, make it competitive, and for the same budget as running a quick FF1600, join The Big Boy's and come over to ARP F3 where the proper racing begins…..

[darcym]

ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[JohnMiller]

Is it April 1st already? Doesn't time fly...

Seriously, you'd think they'd want to make headlines re: JW coming in and winning as they might attract a few more, needed entrants that way...

[Neil1982]

I struggle to believe that you can run in ARP on a similar budget. For starters you use those **** cross-ply tires, which don’t seem to last long. I don’t understand why ARP won’t allow the use of radials. Surely it would make more sense, especially with the later F3 cars designed to run on them.

Personally I would rather buy an F3 car, sell the engine which must also cost a fortune to run (rebuilds and special fuel) and install a mono spec one. They produce about the same BHP as an F3 engine running 24mm restrictor at a fraction of the cost. It easy enough to do, there are plenty on the mono grid. You can also then run decent radial tires. I can then run around at the back of a full grid!

[diz]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

As a race engineer for one of the private teams currently in the ARP championship I have made a few observations.
1. We came as a team who had previously competed with a modicum of success in the NW ff1600 We didn't give up.
2. I started to read books on ground force, (you FF1600 lads should do it, it would open your eyes, had I done this in our days in FF1600, I would have discovered that, had I done a simple mod to our Reynard FF1600, this would have given us 200 rpm at Silverstone).
3. He certainly was my benchmark.And oh, I forgot, while you lot are complaining that ARP F3 isn’t competitive, in Formula Ford 1600, there are only usually 4 cars with any chance of winning, all the others are 2 seconds behind, and not worth timing!

Just picking bits out of your post maddogf3
1. I think you are not just a race engineer, but a race engineer / driver.
2. I don't recall the Cheshire Building Society Reynard venturing out at Silverstone
3. Very unfair. It is similar in most classes that the 'closeness' is at the 'spending money end of the grid'

Oh and welcome to ten tenths Cleggie

[gadgit]

I'd agree in general with your comments. I suppose I'd have to with having the Ralt RT30.
I'd say that the others in ARP would be happy to have a young lad, but, yes this attitude of going for it, whatever the cost of the damage will upset people if he keeps carving into people.
I've not seen an ARP event yet but hope to this year to see what its all about. I think you are kidding yourself if you think you can get a good ARP car for 7K unless you have robbed someone who didn't know what there car was worth. there are some out there who under price the car and you should grab one if you find it.
The problen with being up with the rest is the price of the engines !!! I know someone who bought an ARP car and set it up for Mono racing and sold the engine and bits for around 8K and then fitted a vaux unit to the car. Most have special engines as you will know and things that are cheap to rebuild for mono will brake the bank for some people.

It all depends of course, on what you can do yourself, and who you know. Not everyone is a machanic who has a workshop or a dad that will do the work for nothing, or someone who is prepared to pay for the drive, or an big bank account!!

So most will buy an F3 like me, and join a friendly club like Mono to keep the cost down to a reasonable level, and do a few races a year only because that's all we can justify to the wife, kids and mortgage.

But good luck, perhaps I'll pop along and see what all the fuss is about ?

Gadgit.

[maddogf3]

First off. I'm not Cleggie .I do know who he is though .You can get these cars for as little as £7000 .Last years ARP Master champion sold one for that figure as it was raced .It went abroad . What a bargain . That car wanted some time spending on it though. It was a it slow .Oh! BY the way he used the same set of tyres all season and had his Mum and Dad running him The two cars in front were constantly faster but had DNF's to contened with .Mr Whiteside just sat back and let the other two fight it out and was there to pick up the points .Brian Mularkey wants that type of money for a Swift (I'd know which I would pick ) .
SO PLEASE NO NIT PICKING . PUT SOME SPARKLE BACK INTO YOUR LIFE AND COME TO ARP F3

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

.Brian Mularkey wants that type of money for a Swift (I'd know which I would pick ) .

The one with:

resale value
lots of places to race
spares availability
that doesn't use £11/gallon petrol

or the F3?

[Cleggie]

Those who are complaining about costs of ARP seem to be badly misinformed:

Tyres cost only a little more than FF tyres and last about as long, if you want them to. But just like in FF, if you think you have a chance of a front row grid place, use new, other wise use a part worn set, Winslow did. Especially if you dont know the circuit too well, a part worn set of tyres will easily cope with a driver working up to a quick time.

Fuel, not that much more costly, you don't need to do as many test laps in F3.

Engines, well looked after 8 valve engines last longer than you think, (certainly more than a season), they dont rev as high as FF1600. I've got a zero miles rebuilt one that is worth about £6,000, funnily enough the same cost as a FF1600 engine.

And as for using F3 cars in MONO... Mono have 40mm ride hight, this destroys most of your ground effect aerodynamics and therefore ruining cornering speed.

[Driving Spanner]

ARP F3 is a good series from what i have seen!!! the use of crossply's is because the cars are more difficalt to set up on radials and most people with these cars have the previous data from the car to use when setting it up, just throw that in the bin and use radials??? i think not, this is club racing remember!!!

The are fantastic cars, brilliantly built, but also more to do than a FF so, you would need to be more experianced to run one.... but dont knock it till you've tried it hay lads?!?!?!?!

[Redracer77]

going back to the tread which is about REAL RACING where has ARP shown that this season? I have been unfortunate to see 2 races this year and they were so boring. No overtaking at all and lots of silly crashes even in testing. They have wings and soft tyres yet all apart from the top 2 or 3 were really slow in the corners?

FF1600 offers closer racing with more cars involved so the battles continue down the field. At Oulton we have nearly 50 cars racing so a spectator can see lots of racing, overtaking etc in a short space of time. So although the cars in ARP look the nuts the championship as a whole is poor and will be even poorer next season if your PR people keep going!!!

I would love to see ARP have a strong series as it could be very easily but at the moment it is not.

[Ian Sowman]

I seem to remember seeing one very good ARP F3 race at Oulton, as well as quite a few relatively tedious FF1600 ones.

I don't see the benefit of comparing those two categories anyway. Why not compare ARP F3 with the new look BARC Formula Renault for example? FF1600 vs ARP F3 just isn't very meaningful in my eyes.

[diz]

Originally Posted by Cleggie

I've got a zero miles rebuilt one that is worth about £6,000, funnily enough the same cost as a FF1600 engine.

2nd time lucky. Welcome to ten tenths Cleggie.
Now clasping my wooden spoon firmly in my clammy mitt.
Couldn't you get one of those 600cc Formula Jedi things for about that money - complete - and go just as quick, or slightly quicker?

[diz]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

I seem to remember seeing one very good ARP F3 race at Oulton, as well as quite a few relatively tedious FF1600 ones.

Ah but the reports on clubff1600 made the tedious ones sound good

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by diz

2nd time lucky. Welcome to ten tenths Cleggie.
Now clasping my wooden spoon firmly in my clammy mitt.
Couldn't you get one of those 600cc Formula Jedi things for about that money - complete - and go just as quick, or slightly quicker?

It is a 1000cc Jedi that you'd need to outpace the ARP F3s.

[Cleggie]

Originally Posted by diz

2nd time lucky. Welcome to ten tenths Cleggie.
Now clasping my wooden spoon firmly in my clammy mitt.
Couldn't you get one of those 600cc Formula Jedi things for about that money - complete - and go just as quick, or slightly quicker?

f****dxv..Anglesey..xyyyq....nfdjfwfn**broken rod end** *fff****dd......speechless......

[Neil1982]

Originally Posted by Cleggie

Those who are complaining about costs of ARP seem to be badly misinformed:

Engines, well looked after 8 valve engines last longer than you think, (certainly more than a season), they dont rev as high as FF1600. I've got a zero miles rebuilt one that is worth about £6,000, funnily enough the same cost as a FF1600 engine.

And as for using F3 cars in MONO... Mono have 40mm ride hight, this destroys most of your ground effect aerodynamics and therefore ruining cornering speed.

A very good mono engine can cost as little as £2k, and have been known to last 3 seasons.

Running at 40mm will undoubtedly reduce under body down force, however several Reynard 883s/ 873s, Dallara F398s/F300s and a Toms 037F have run in mono recently, and if you compare lap times with ARP they are give and take from circuit to circuit the same. The older Ralt RT3s which run ground effects should in theory be hurt even more by the 40mm ride heights, but they are still as competitive as ever! So for club racers it clearly can't hurt your cornering speed too much raising the car by 20mm. Perhaps its because the mono drivers have them properly set-up to run radial tires which are the correct size for the cars, and hence keep the suspension settings (besides raising the ride height) roughly as they were designed to run in F3? Maybe if you were allowed to use radials in ARP and run at 20mm you would find yourselves dramtically quicker.

[diz]

Not on 5th December it wasn't, but - normally - yes.

[Cleggie]

Originally Posted by Neil1982

A very good mono engine can cost as little as £2k, and have been known to last 3 seasons.

Running at 40mm will undoubtedly reduce under body down force, however several Reynard 883s/ 873s, Dallara F398s/F300s and a Toms 037F have run in mono recently, and if you compare lap times with ARP they are give and take from circuit to circuit the same. The older Ralt RT3s which run ground effects should in theory be hurt even more by the 40mm ride heights, but they are still as competitive as ever! So for club racers it clearly can't hurt your cornering speed too much raising the car by 20mm. Perhaps its because the mono drivers have them properly set-up to run radial tires which are the correct size for the cars, and hence keep the suspension settings (besides raising the ride height) roughly as they were designed to run in F3? Maybe if you were allowed to use radials in ARP and run at 20mm you would find yourselves dramtically quicker.

Lap times for Mono's and ARP F3 are only similar because your cars are quicker on the straights, because Mono engines are not restricted/fuel injected and you don't have the same drag because your cars are too high. The floors aren't producing the drag or aerodynamics.

With 40mm ride heights, the cars simply won't work, no matter how much you try and set them up. THis has been tried in ARP years ago and it doesn't work. Its simple: the higher the floor (even by a few mm) the slower the cars are, I know because I've tried it.

THe key to racing F3 is cornering speed, lots of grip, not much power! F1 drivers have all done F3, how many have come from MONO? sorry.

[JohnMiller]

I thought the Dallara destroyed the Reynard in 1993 because of its underbody aero so maybe a 80s/90s Reynard would be less affected by the 40mm rideheight issue than a Dallara?

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by Cleggie

THe key to racing F3 is cornering speed, lots of grip, not much power! F1 drivers have all done F3, how many have come from MONO? sorry.

How many F1 drivers have come from ARP F3?

[maddogf3]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

How many F1 drivers have come from ARP F3?

You seem to be mistaken and I'm sorry for that .Its our cars that come from British F3 not the drivers .The british F3 probably have more Kart drivers than any others . But we have the cast off's from that series ,as you know I was told that one would need a million pound budget to run in B F3 bit out of our reach then being humble club racers That chap has ended up in ARP . So that's two then that would like to make the jump
I dont belittle any racing series ,I'm sure that even the most lowly and low cost series still need the same amount of commitment as we give to our cars . I had a great time listening to the set up required for 2cv racing.If Jedi's are so good why are you lot not racing them .

[Ian Sowman]

No, I'm not mistaken - I was merely throwing the question back at Cleggie who said that every F1 driver had done F3 (not true anyway) but how many Mono drivers had? Not really a meaningful comparison.

[Kicking-back]

Proving the point - ARP is a series for clubmen and fat businessmen - and it doesn't want aspirational drivers like Winslow.

Why not just be upfront and admit that?

There's no harm in being a club series - but don't shaft someone just because he has ambition.

[Slippery]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

How many F1 drivers have come from ARP F3?

Hit the nail on the head!

"as you know I was told that one would need a million pound budget to run in B F3"

Your having a laugh!!? For one car!? You could do GP2 for that and probably have a bit of a change if the team wanted you!