rallycross weight limits & 2lrs stocks

[sihorton]

Over the season so far I've heard numerous stories floating round the paddock about introducing weight limits for stock hatch in 2007 and also stories about introducing a 2ltr stock hatch style class.

Does anybody know anything more about either of these as it's now the time of year that people will start to be thinking about what they are doing in rallycross next season..

I definatelly think the 2ltr class needs to happen really as there needs to be a bridge class between stockhatch and supermod's. It would also open up an entirely new selection of cars to the sport which can only be a good thing.
I know there are a lot of stockhatch driver that would like to step up, but can't afford the budgets of a supermod racers so i'm sure the class could be a success.

si

[Toymaster]

i agree with Mr horton a 2l standard engined class based on the stockhatch
regs would be an excellent progression for those of us who would like to step up a bit without breaking the bank.
Standard engines and restricted regs would keep the same close racing spirit of stock hatch and the extra power might add a bit more excitement.
As Mr Horton says it would also open the options for the possible use of different cars,again in my book not a bad thing.

[BertMk2]

You'd have to have weight limits as well to try and prevent one car type dominating in the way the 205 has done in Stock Hatch - 2 litre without those sort of limits just means Civic Type R's all round and that's dull

[zac510]

Originally Posted by Toymaster

those of us who would like to step up a bit without breaking the bank.

Do you want to step up because you want to lap faster, or do you want more competition?

If there were 2 or 3 times as many cars in stock hatch you'd get more competition. Wouldn't be going any faster though

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

You'd have to have weight limits as well to try and prevent one car type dominating in the way the 205 has done in Stock Hatch - 2 litre without those sort of limits just means Civic Type R's all round and that's dull

True, it would be more like Div 2, however there wasnt really much interest in a 2ltr class from our side, it was put to the existing stockhatch drivers (if derek tohill is still around these parts drop us a line derek!) and there wasnt a real interest.

But to be honest, there is very little difference these days between a Very competitive stockhatch car and a Modified class car.

[Spunky Munky]

To be perfectly honest, the BTRDA Super Modified is the step between the two classes im my opinion.
My budget is alot lower than those in the BRDA class, and the cost of converting my stockhatch to Modified was probably less than it costs to build a top Stockhatch.
Running costs so far this year has been just my entry fees and petrol, same as running a Stockhatch, but without having to replace the panels after every meeting.
Obvioulsy the initial set up with slick tyres, wets and wheels isnt cheap, but once purchased should last for a while.
So why dont people convert to this class? Its certainly poorly supported at the minute, so a place for you to graduate too?

[chris cake]

Hi Guys :

Just had to post this :

We have been talking about 2lt 16v Stockhatch since 03 !

Would bring in many makes and models and very close racing!

If this happened i would be back and racing at every meeting there was!

As for weight limits they should be as 750 motor club , they are still quick
and very close racing!

How many drivers out there how are not driving at the moment would be back?

See you all at Lydden.

[Mr Atspeed JR]

I can see no need for a 2L class. You will have the same problem as there is now. same cars dominating a class. It would just be know as the civic class. Why not improve on what you've already got. Weight limits are a good idea. Success ballast would slow the dominant cars down. You need to get the drivers back. The price of entry fees need to come down. AND THE RULES NEED TO BE POLICED PROPERLY!!

[silver bullet]

I am sure it was announced at the begining of the season that the BRDA were looking at introducing weight limits in 2007. I am not sure wether they are thinking of the Irish system, (one weight accross the board for all cars) or the 750 MC system (based on manufacturers kerb weights). I for one would prefer the 750 way. I think it would lead to more variaty of cars.

As for the introduction of a 'Super Stock Hatch' class, I'm not sure if the time is right. I think the cons out-weigh the pro's.

Will it act as a stepping stone between Stocks and Supermods? I don't think so, 2.0 ltr Stockhatches will still be Stockhatches, ie, standard no modifications. A stepping stone class should allow some modifications. I think the Modified class that the BRDA tried a couple of years ago was a better idea, they just did not give it long enough to catch on.
If you want to step up from Stock's to Supermod's As Asa says do the BTRDA series.

Will it bring more variaty of models? I don't think so. I can see the one or two models being dominant, and some people will spend an arm and a leg building blueprinted engines, and I can see an influx of 1.9 205 gti's

My final reason against it is, The competitor base is still not big enough. If we were getting 20+ Stockhatches entering the BRDA championship meetings fine, but we are not. I don't think the introduction of 2.0ltr Stock's would bring in many more competitors, it would just dilute the current classes even more.

In the future a 2.0ltr class may be a good thing but IMHO not yet.

[sihorton]

I think we could do with getting an official from the BRDA to confirm what is happening with the weight rules for next year as it will have an effect on who races in what classes and in what cars next year.

The 750mc limits seem to work very well from what i have seen with some very close and competative racing. There are plenty of different types of cars in the stock hatch class races which crowds like to see.

I for one am already thinking of what i want to do next year and i'm sure other people have it in there minds too.

[Roundy Mooney]

1) juniors (Open up to other 1.0 litre cars with weight limits)

2) stock hatch, weight as per 750mc Weight limits applied to equalise 1.4 and 8 valve cars, no variable valve timing cars.(It is only inevetable that it will have to be opened up to opened up to 1.6 16v but again with proper ballasting nobody needs to be left behind)

3) Super stock, up to 2.0 16v, Stock hatch regs with a diff, Weight limits applied.

4) Super Modified stay as is
(Could be broken up into upto and over 1600cc
as the per irish championship but run together so as not to confuse spectators this would also allow you to have Div 1a cars used)

5) Supercar stay as is

Lots of options on cars and a sensible progression between classses I think is what everyone wants !!

Posted the above before in another thread and still think it is the way forward. Cars only start dominating a class if you let them.

I know the Irish system of weights is not ideal but at least it went some way to addressing the crazy situation where some cars were up to 60 - 70 Kilos lighter than others and it is under review at the end of this season.

You do need continuity of classes but you also need to be realistic about times moving on. I think what annoys most is when things get choped and changed and cars become obsolete overnight.

I would sympathise with Chris. I think there are many drivers who have done all they want to in stock hatch and need a new challenge but are unwilling or unable to fork out for modified. As I have said before you might be able to build a cheap modified for less then a proposed Hot Hatch but a competitive hot hatch would cost a lot less than a competitive modified IMO.

PS
Silver do I detect that blue oval fever taking you over again!! leave the poor french biscut tins alone. I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining if there was a full grid of Henry's finest !!!

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by Roundy Mooney

Posted the above before in another thread and still think it is the way forward. Cars only start dominating a class if you let them.

I know the Irish system of weights is not ideal but at least it went some way to addressing the crazy situation where some cars were up to 60 - 70 Kilos lighter than others and it is under review at the end of this season.

You do need continuity of classes but you also need to be realistic about times moving on. I think what annoys most is when things get choped and changed and cars become obsolete overnight.

I would sympathise with Chris. I think there are many drivers who have done all they want to in stock hatch and need a new challenge but are unwilling or unable to fork out for modified. As I have said before you might be able to build a cheap modified for less then a proposed Hot Hatch but a competitive hot hatch would cost a lot less than a competitive modified IMO.

PS
Silver do I detect that blue oval fever taking you over again!! leave the poor french biscut tins alone. I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining if there was a full grid of Henry's finest !!!

Well said,

Where have you been ??

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by Roundy Mooney

PS
Silver do I detect that blue oval fever taking you over again!!

No, not this time

Originally Posted by Roundy Mooney

leave the poor french biscut tins alone.

If there wasn't so many of them I would, and I really don't want to see any more of them

Originally Posted by Roundy Mooney

I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining if there was a full grid of Henry's finest !!!

Actually to be serious for a moment, I would not like to see any model dominate the grids, not even if they are wearing the blue oval.
That is why the 750mc's Stock Hatch championship is so succesful, very varied grids. If the BRDA adopted the 750mc's weight system, and applied the performance equalising rules that are already written in the rule book, we could have the same.

[PhilChicken]

Rally-cross, as a sport needs to move forward. The use of new more modern machinery needs to be allowed and encouraged. If this does not happen the sport will stagnate.

The main problem, as I see it, is if the rules are changed to disadvantage the eight valve 205-type cars a lot of competitors will be lost very quickly.

A possible compromise could be the inception of a separate, additional stock-hatch class.

This “super Stock-hatch” would be aimed at more modern 16valve cars.

Engine size, 2ltr or 1600 ?

Variable valve timing (Ban it ?)

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by PhilChicken

Rally-cross, as a sport needs to move forward. The use of new more modern machinery needs to be allowed and encouraged.

Things can't stand still, the Pugs are all well and good but things are moving on outside the sport so they need to move on within the sport too.

Originally Posted by PhilChicken

The main problem, as I see it, is if the rules are changed to disadvantage the eight valve 205-type cars a lot of competitors will be lost very quickly.

Spot on - any changes have to be made with a view to keeping all existing cars legal and competitive.

Originally Posted by PhilChicken

A possible compromise could be the inception of a separate, additional stock-hatch class. This “super Stock-hatch” would be aimed at more modern 16valve cars.

I don't think you need to create new sub classes - just introduce weight limits and police them properly, if someone has a 1600 16V with variable valve timing then fine - just stick more weight on it, if someone has a 1600 8V then don't add any (obviously it's not quite that simplistic - different models will require different weights to be carried, it can't purely be done on engine). It works for 750MC so there's no reason it can't work for rallycross - if it is implemented it must be properly policed and enforced to give parity across the class.

[leonidas]

If you did want to have a sub-class for older machinery I think the 750MC again have the right idea. They run a Class B title for older machinery (I think 1992 is the cut-off date). In rallycross it would be very straightforward to run a seperate Class B final if people wanted it.

Alternatively, you could have the MSA/BRDA stock hatch title as an open class (to include more modern machinery) and the BTRDA reserved for older Class B cars? This would mean you couldn't 'double up' so easily and run both series but it might be a logical division.

But either way you have to have properly-policed weights...

[turbo'd]

what about if they kept the original stock hatch class and also included 1600 16v cars to allow saxo vts, 106 gti etc to be used but although they would race together they could have them in seperate class to make things fair!!!