Good & Bad: BAR & Toyota & attitudes (merged)

[stubert]

Bar is a pleasent suprise this year and is in the hunt for points. Mybe Honda is getting their act together.

I thought at the end of last year Toyota was starting to show some progress but for all the money they have invested it looks pretty bad so far.

[Kicking-back]

Toyota will get much better in the coming years now Mike Gascoyne's on board.

[climb]

It's a hope, KB; they said the same thing when John Barnard got to Ferrari...

[BootsOntheSide]

I hope get no better - I enjoy seeing big companies spend lots of money and end up looking stupid. Unfortunately, given their record in other championships, they will simply complain and attemtps to ge the rules changed if they don't succeed.

BAR have indeed been very impressive - Jenson getting that podium was a defiante highlight of the first 2 races, adn I'm sure there's more to come.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
they will simply complain and attemtps to ge the rules changed if they don't succeed.

Well they truly belong in F1. As this is what all the teams in presently in it are like.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by climb
It's a hope, KB; they said the same thing when John Barnard got to Ferrari...

:confused: Ferrari's fortunes did take an upturn when he went there. Narrowly missing out on the title in 1990 and claiming 6 wins that year. A far cry from the mid '80s just before he joined.

Anyway, back to topic. BAR are talking positively about every aspect of their program. They seem convinced they are on the right track. Of course their main concern has to be Renaults upgrades that come on-line early in the European season and if McLaren sort themselves out. However, no doubt, BAR will keep making progress too.

Toyota. A very disapointing start to the year, but I still think that they will move up the grid...

[Dutton]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Well they truly belong in F1. As this is what all the teams in presently in it are like.

Quite.

[neilap]

I should have kept record of all the people that were thrashing BAR and saying Toyota would destroy them. I dont want to gloat but it seems that people would rather listen to the media and "those in the know" that look at numbers. BAR was making huge steps in the end of last season and was clearly being let down by tires that were designed for another car. Its debatable that Honda now has a top three motor and watching the onboard vids of the BAR drivers it seems the car handles pretty well too.

Toyota has a poor reputation in competition. Yes they have many wins but there is scandal behind many of them too.

Hopefully this is one of the last times I see BAR Honda and Toyota mentioned in the same post. IOW, I would much rather to see Ferrari, Renault, Williams etc. mentioned. Toyota claims they will have a "new" car for the European season. Their season will effectively begin when the spec B car hits the track. If BAR can achieve the continuity needed to make a great car, I dont feel a spec B or a new Renault/Toyota should be a threat in 05.

Ferrari is the target. Those behind BAR should be looking at them, not the other way around.

[climb]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
:confused: Ferrari's fortunes did take an upturn when he went there. Narrowly missing out on the title in 1990 and claiming 6 wins that year. A far cry from the mid '80s just before he joined.
...

It's not the right therad to discuss it, but it's very arguable that the magic parenthesis of 1990 was due to Barnard's arrival.

[neilap]

http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=26572&s=5


BAR is not pulling any punches. They for once are not being "wishy washy". DR, if nothing else has given this team attitude and confidence. I love it.

Toyota, on the other hand tries so hard to hide their arrogance. They say things like "We hope to get points"... ...makes me sick. We all know they expect it but were just saying that because if they came out of the gates really poorly they would not look like asses.

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=46453

This also illustrates my point. BAR is on a mission. This is the attitude of a winner. I remember people accusing DR, JB and the rest of the BAR team of being arrogant and disillusioned. Now they look like they may actually know what they are talking about.

No, I am not predicting anything cause we know anything can happen in racing. However, the teams attitude is remarkable.

[Mr V]

I know that you don't like Toyota neil, but i don't understand you! Jenson has justified previous comments about getting a podium, but his quote below could be seen as a little arrogant.......

Autosport

BAR ace Jenson Button believes that he will be able to challenge Ferrari and Michael Schumacher by the end of this season as long as his team continues with the progress it has made so far this season.

But when a team (that you don't like, incidently) says that it "hopes to get some points" it's arrogent, whilst BAR/Jenson are not pulling any punches? :confused:

Originally posted by neilap


Toyota, on the other hand tries so hard to hide their arrogance. They say things like "We hope to get points"... ...makes me sick.

What do you expect them to say? We hope to win this season? Well, they are not in a position too, and the only position they are in are to hopefully score points, which is what they have stated.

[Peter Mallett]

Isn't this just an ever so slight duplication?

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=52227

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Isn't this just an ever so slight duplication?[/url]

Give me chance I've merged them now!

[Glen]

Watch you don't gloat too hard, Neil. Toyota will get it right soon enough, especially once Gascoine has had proper influence from the start of the car's design to the end (ie. next year). On the grounds that Gascoine's previous car, the Renault, is BAR's main rival now (even with a good ten per cent engine power defecit) I have to assume that the new cars from your least favourite team will be far better. For this season enjoy it, because whether you like it or not Toyota will be up there scoring podiums sooner than you think.

[shiny side up!]

Originally posted by Glen
(even with a good ten per cent engine power defecit)

I highly doubt there is a 10% power gap. Clearly there is some engine gap from Renault to the top teams, but 10% would be 80+hp...

[neilap]

Originally posted by Glen
Watch you don't gloat too hard, Neil. Toyota will get it right soon enough, especially once Gascoine has had proper influence from the start of the car's design to the end (ie. next year). On the grounds that Gascoine's previous car, the Renault, is BAR's main rival now (even with a good ten per cent engine power defecit) I have to assume that the new cars from your least favourite team will be far better. For this season enjoy it, because whether you like it or not Toyota will be up there scoring podiums sooner than you think.

Sounds like gloating doesnt it? Its not meant to be though. I have no doubt Toyota will be one of the better teams. Maybe even by mid season they will be a second per lap faster than at the start of the season.

V, you honestly believe that Toyota did not expect to qualify for races in their first season, or that they just hoped to finish the races in their 2nd, and in their third they just hope for points. I feel its a little more like CYA.

Anyway, I was concentrating on the fact that BAR expects to be fighting the best. IMO the only way to really be a contender is to expect it. BAR since its first flop of a season has been too understated and too "hopeful" instead of demanding. They have the money and the talent. They should expect to be winners not hope to be. Arrogance would be to say they are better than someone else. Confidence is stating their actual expectations and not being understated in order to save face. They are where they are because of hard work and now they know they must work even harder to make another step.

I do dislike Toyota so maybe its best I not mention them anymore because I wont have too many good things to say about them. I love racing. Some companies love to race too but others do it for the sole purpose of selling more cars and to be the worlds number one automaker. The fact of the matter is racing is a sport to make it anything else only devalues it.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by neilap


V, you honestly believe that Toyota did not expect to qualify for races in their first season, or that they just hoped to finish the races in their 2nd, and in their third they just hope for points. I feel its a little more like CYA.

Of course i don't believe that they didn't expect to qualify etc, they knew roughly where they were but didn't try to build themselves up.

Tell me what sounds more arrogant....

Toyota (before joining F1) "we hope to qualify in our first season"

BAR (before joining F1) "we will win our first race"

Originally posted by neilap

I do dislike Toyota so maybe its best I not mention them anymore because I wont have too many good things to say about them.

Theres nothing wrong with disliking a team or driver, just don't let it cloud every post you make.

[neilap]

I dont even know what BAR were thinking when they entered F1. There is a saying... Arrogance is much different from ignorance. BAR was actually both.

Nah, I will try not to mention them anymore. I stopped bashing RS so I can stop bashing them too. Dont take my posts so seriously. My dislike for Toyota is more like my dislike for chocolate icecream. Its not that serious. Maybe I need to use more smilies because half the time I am just joking and the other half I am not serious.

[golem]

I did pick Toyota to be further along than they are. Andersson I didn't have much faith in but I figured Gustav would've done a better job than he managed. The motor has always seemed well up to the job.

I much rather Toyota succeed than Mercedes myself, but better Honda than any. ^_^ I'm a bit of a fan of Mister Honda's motto, racing to improve the breed. They make good gear, and have a real interest in racing it seems. The sooner BAT is replaced by another big sponsor and Honda has more of a share in the team, the better.

[Gt_R]

Actually, it's quite strange to see Toyota just suddenly drop off again. There were a couple of races last year where with the opportunity, Toyota showed their ability, most notably at Silverstone. And with that kind of budget, with that kind of resources, to struggle in midfield isn't really pretty.

Frankly, i'd rather see a Honda win than a Toyota win. It's pretty much the same as i rather see a BWM win than a Mercedes win...emotional reasons and nothing very logical. Both rivalries are only different in that one is German-fight, one is Japanese.

BAR had produced a pretty decent car last year too, unfortunately being hampered mainly by the fact that the BS is an inferior tyre to the Michelins. This year, on similar tyres to their immediate foes, they showed the ability and proved their confidence. And i must say that with a new structure, with DR at the helm, and with some problematic and destablising factors removed (no offence), BAR now look set to achieve what their predecessor aimed for but never accomplished. The team looks more focused, more well managed, better organised and with professionalism mixed with a good dose of enthusiasm.

Nobody at Honda nor Toyota should be too pleased with themselves, nor laugh off the rival's misfortunes because many times had shown, the tide changes pretty quickly in F1.

[daniel27]

Toyota has a massive budget and Gascoyne at the helm if any team is going to consistently challenge the top three it will be them. Unless Honda ups the ante considerably ie. buy BAR and invest heavily they will probably fall behind Toyota as early as next year. BTW I'm no fan of Toyota but it's clear they will be a powerful force in F1 for as long as they choose to participate in the sport.