Why do you watch?

[flatlandsman]

This is not meant to be an attack..

It is simply means to be almost a survey.

What is it about F1 that attracts you?

Is it driving, passing, venues, engineering, celebrities, glamour? Or is it simply habit and FOMO?

I am 50 odd and cannot recall a time when I was not even remotely interested in watching an F1 race, but the hybrid era has left me stone cold.

Is that because of domination? Yes partly, is it the sound, for sure, the cars are unappealing to look at, the tracks are too safe in some ways, the venues the series goes to are about money in most cases rather than challenge and history? It has always been expensive to watch but that seems to have gotten worse especially in the UK.

What are your reasons for still watching, are you a new fan, are you a lifer? Have you been and come back, especially if you used to watch but you love this modern era?

I find this fascinating as I have completely lost any love for F1, I still keep up to date but no longer watch races or anything, and I am interested in what it is that maintains an interest?

[Greem]

You've asked this before - on more than one occasion, if I recall - but not in a standalone thread, so... from

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...82#post4204513

I've been an F1 fan and latterly enthusiast since 1982. That's a lot of eras, a lot of changes, and an awful lot of laps. There's more to F1 than one race, it's a year long season, the intrigue and shenanigans never stop whether I like them or not. I can watch a single race and it could be amazing or dreadful but it's just one part of a whole - and that's a whole for me which is now in its fifth decade.

I've been a Manchester United fan for even longer - and I still am, despite them not being at the peak right now. There's more to most sports than just one match, race, or season.

Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment!

To turn the question around though - if you find F1 so diabolically bad these days, why do you persist with it? As a comparator, I find an awful lot of pop music these days a complete mystery, but I don't force myself to listen to it just so I can have a bad opinion. There's much more music out there than the big stuff, and it's the same with motorsport.

I'm not particularly enamoured with the WRC but I don't go out of my way to watch it and then tell everyone I don't like it. I just don't watch it!

[Richard C]

Probably easier to just quote my answer from the last time you asked.

Link for that answer to provide more context...

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=51

As my response was cut up a bit, the quote below may not make full sense of the context, so I tried to inject the context a bit into the info below

Originally Posted by Richard C

(context... when did you start)
I think I started watching around 1988 and pretty consistently a few years after that.

(context... why do you watch and what else do you watch)
I find it interesting that you use the very narrow "watch" vs. something broader that covers more of the overall experience.

I "follow" F1 (including watching races and qualifying, keeping up on news, participating in social media such as this site) as I enjoy the technical competition of the power unit and manufactures and the on track battles between the teams (drivers, strategists, pit crew, etc.). As to what I get out of it... it is a competition. There is always something of interest happening. I would love to see more F1 races in which there is tighter competition and more lap by lap action (such as driver battles). But... not at the expense of "helping hand" rules (see my comments about BoP below). Because to me those series are fiction. I am not here to watch fiction.

As to "watching". While I may occasionally watch something like a race or qualifying "live", I generally am watching it delayed and have no issues with fast forwarding through and skipping as needed.

What else am I watching/following? I used to follow WRC many years ago when it was much easier to watch in the US. I pretty much almost love endurance and GT racing as much as F1, but give the predominate series stopped having any real technological competition and are ruled by BoP strategy I pretty much lost nearly all interest (at the end of the semi-recent Porsche/Audi era). This may be fighting words for some people here, but for me, WEC, etc. is just one step away from theatrical wrestling.

Maybe that is a bit of a strong statement, but it illustrates how much of a priority I put upon competition that does not include "helping hands" for the purposes of entertainment. I think the fiction element of something like WEC is too much for me. If something like WEC moved back toward something that was focused on working to technical specifications and let the best team win, I would be instantly back to following it.

(context... F1 is not an open tech spec)
I get your point to a degree. F1 is a business. And the sandbox in which development is open is pretty small. But also larger than people think. As to "true innovation" what racing series today is doing that? None of the top ones for sure!

(context... F1 exists just to keep F1 employees employed and well paid)
I didn't quote this entire thing, but I just don't really get what you are saying here. People are over paid or something. I don't quite understand.

Question back at you flatlandsman... What do you think are good motorsports series that DONT have problems that you say F1 has? I have yet to find a perfect series out there.

Richard

Another question... what do you expect to get out of this that you haven't already? You admit you don't find it interesting and don't watch races, but at the same time you follow the sport. Why follow if you don't like it. I don't care for many sports so I don't keep up on what happens with them. It would just be a waste of my time.

Richard

[flatlandsman]

Forgive, I had no idea, I do not recall other members names or replies.

And in fairness I am not telling everyone not to watch it am I? Merely wondering what it is about this modern era that has made me lose interest. Yet gained a staggering amount of NEW fans, what is they see? I guess my feeling is a bit like football, I take a passing interest but feel no desire to pay and watch it, where I did in the past. I think with that moving around away from my home team and the expense are the reasons.

If you want to be tetchy about it, fair enough, that was not my intention. But no shock, it is a common theme.

[GORDON STREETER]

Personally I think that MotoGP is the best for "edge of the seat" viewing. I used to watch F1 but not anymore. One of my family work for McLaren so I do get to hear about it and know what is happening, however this last few years have really put me off !

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Another question... what do you expect to get out of this that you haven't already? You admit you don't find it interesting and don't watch races, but at the same time you follow the sport. Why follow if you don't like it. I don't care for many sports so I don't keep up on what happens with them. It would just be a waste of my time.

Thoughts? Comments?

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

Forgive, I had no idea, I do not recall other members names or replies.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

If you want to be tetchy about it, fair enough, that was not my intention. But no shock, it is a common theme.

I think we are not trying to be overly sensitive, but as you have asked multiple times and it has been answered, and you admit you don't remember what people said last time you asked, why should people continue to answer. It also seems to be a one way discussion. See below...

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

Merely wondering what it is about this modern era that has made me lose interest.

We can't answer the question for you. I am curious as to your answer. To my point above, you ask us "why?", can we not ask you "why?" I think you somewhat answered somewhat vaguely in a prior thread (broadly I think it was... the technical rules are not open enough for you, which is the same for pretty much all top motorsport series). So where do we go from here from a discussion perspective?

Richard

[Skam85]

Personally if I don't like something I don't tend to go to a very specific part of the internet to tell a small collection of people I don't like it.

But that's just me.

[Alan52]

This thread has inspired me to find a synchronised swimming forum and spend time asking people what they see in it because it is rubbish.
Then again maybe not that inspired.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

And in fairness I am not telling everyone not to watch it am I? Merely wondering what it is about this modern era that has made me lose interest. Yet gained a staggering amount of NEW fans, what is they see?

How about looking at the question from an alternative view?

What attracted you to watch F1 when you would consider yourself a fan?

[flatlandsman]

OK interesting point, thanks. It was the racing, the cars looked hard to drive, with proper gearboxes and turbo lag, tricky tracks, real personalities. Overtaking was real not fake, less petulant drivers, more men than footballer.

Was the racing better, in some ways yes, as you had to overtake properly, or wait for mistakes. Was it closer, not at all, often races were won by laps!

Was it still technically interesting, yes, there was more technology as it was all new, was it well done, probably no, as it was all new and the tech used to measure it was very basic.

A lot of that has been lost, the racing is very fake now, it still happens of course. But less so. The grid is closer yes, but the gaps at the end still seem huge between the haves and have nots. There as also romance, even garbage like Life, Andrea Moda, Forti Minardi you had a love for those teams do people love Haas? Not really.

And there is a misunderstanding from some posters I think, you can love many aspects of motorsport but not every part, especially when you once did! I don't really know why the interest has waned, it is a combination of cars, noise, racing and money.

I guess the hybrid era really was a killer, I recall watching the test at Jerez and seeing Ted stand by the track and talk normally while cars went by was a huge deal, I don't know why really as the V8's were not a nice sound were they? Very shrill and revvy, but there was noise.

I guess the reason for the question is that I am fascinated by what people see in modern F1, this new breed of fan, obviously this is not the place, as most people are just bitter and defensive at being asked!!

Honestly I am not complaining, I still appreciate the sport and see it as the pinnacle, I am merely asking people why they watch it.

[Greem]

I genuinely don't understand why you think the replies are "bitter and defensive". They've been quite open, and we've all asked the reverse question.

Sounds like a conversation to me!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

OK interesting point, thanks. It was the racing, the cars looked hard to drive, with proper gearboxes and turbo lag, tricky tracks, real personalities. Overtaking was real not fake, less petulant drivers, more men than footballer.

To look at the reasons that attracted a certain generation to the sport, and to set them into the context of today's newer viewer - I think the change in the general car world lies at why the sport is popular today:

I'll try and take each point in turn from the first couple of sentences - to hopefully demonstrate the potential mindset of a 'modern' arrival to the sport.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

the cars looked hard to drive,

This was at a time when the standard road car was (I would suggest) much more difficult to drive, with very few driver aids?
Drivers had to consider things such as manual chokes, points, distributors, coils etc. and tyre technology was less developed. Many were used to driving cars without ABS, TCS etc. There was a general acceptance that driving a car (sport or road) was hard, and so it was to be expected for F1. Nowadays, there is still the same difficulty, but manifested in a different way. Managing tyres, controlling aero wash etc. are all things that make today's F1 car difficult to drive, but they don't look obvious.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

with proper gearboxes

As more and more cars on the road lack 'proper' gearboxes, F1 would look outdated if they used the more traditional gearbox construct. Here, the expectation from a modern viewer is that modern cars should have modern gearboxes.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

and turbo lag,

As with gearboxes, turbo lag is less and less common in all types of car. From a viewers perspective, I'm not sure how turbo lag adds to the enjoyment of the sport.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

tricky tracks,

Jeddah, Miami, Monaco, Baku, Las Vegas are not tricky tracks?

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

real personalities.

I have difficulty in seeing the 'real' personalities as something other than outdated in many respects.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

Overtaking was real not fake,

I can understand this - and it is a regular criticism of those new to the sport. The overtaking is a bit too artificial, but newcomers seem to accept that they would rather have artificial overtaking to none at all.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

less petulant drivers,

Is a petulant driver not showing their 'real' personality? Would it be preferable what are referred to as corporate drones?

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

more men than footballer.

This is quite dismissive of both an entire gender and another sport. It insinuates that the current drivers (who are all male) are lesser men in some way. And also suggests that the professional male footballers are also of a lesser status in some way. In a time when the sport is trying to be more inclusive, to take the stance that F1 drivers should be more masculine is a backwards step I feel.


What I think is clear from your reasoning is that you have a preference for an outdated version of the sport, that the world has moved on from. It is impossible to reverse time, and so the question of what appeals to current viewership is a reasonable question. I think it is folly though to try and compare with the past.

Maybe - approach the position from a blank slate. Look at the sport today without referring to the past, and ask - what would attract me to this sport if I had just landed from another planet and had no knowledge of the sport's history.
I would suggest it would be the technological excellence on display, the extreme level of driver talent, the dedication and professionalism of so many involved to deliver the performance that is seen.
Put yourself in the mind of a 12-yr old who visits an F1 race for the first time. They would be in awe of the performance, speed, handling, and scale of the machines and drivers on display. They would have no reason to look at previous noise, handling, or danger that existed within the sport.

[steve_r]

F1 still gives us drama, controversy, overtaking, close racing (OK not always for the win), engineering excellence. Moments of excellence and moments of weakness.

I was also a fan of the bygone era when cars broke down so much that sometimes only a handful finished, F1 races were often more spread out and won by much bigger margins than they were today and you had hopeless teams trying to pre-qualify or getting lapped 6 times.

But if you go back and watch those old races again, they were not all necessarily better than what we have now. Some races back then were of course classics, but many others were dull. In that sense nothing has changed that much.

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by steve_r

F1 still gives us drama, controversy, overtaking, close racing (OK not always for the win), engineering excellence. Moments of excellence and moments of weakness.

I was also a fan of the bygone era when cars broke down so much that sometimes only a handful finished, F1 races were often more spread out and won by much bigger margins than they were today and you had hopeless teams trying to pre-qualify or getting lapped 6 times.

But if you go back and watch those old races again, they were not all necessarily better than what we have now. Some races back then were of course classics, but many others were dull. In that sense nothing has changed that much.

I think you make a great point Steve. Nostalgia has funny effects - many remember the V10 era as a high-point but the Schumacher years were not that dissimilar to what we have seen over the last decade with the prominence of a single team.

Personally, if they could change one thing, I would really like them to liberate the rule book. The amount of human energy and money to change one vane on a front wing on one venturi tunnel just seems a rubbish return on the cerebral clout of F1 - Tyrell produced a 6-wheel car and Brabham a fan-car on an absolute fraction of current spends. But, the desire seems to be for a semi-spec series where the top ten qualify within 0.5 of a second rather that a true innovation test bed (which i personally think is a shame and against what F1 has typically stood for).

[broadrun96]

Remember nostalgia makes you forget how many things were spec or close enough without rules. And those costs of the past are insane for the time as well, maybe not MB/Red Bull numbers but they weren't run by the peasants

[v8supes]

My cat likes it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Look at the lovely Red Bull or McLaren-like overbite sidepod inlets that will soon be debuting on the Ferrari:



The innovation and sheer rate of development in Formula One is just fantastic isn't it!

It's the big leagues. No Balance-of-Performance artificial nonsense like the (so-called) WEC big leagues, no racing stale 10 year old cars like the (so-called) Indycar big leagues.

This Honda power unit is a work of art, no? You don't get that in other categories -- apart from IMSA/WEC where Honda are actively penalised for having a their compact and elegant F1-like 2.4L V6 water-air intercooler installation compared to the messy twin-turbo V8s of other entrants (which is totally backwards to reward the likes of Porsche and BMW for having huge, inelegant engines as they try to game BOP).

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by steve_r

But if you go back and watch those old races again, they were not all necessarily better than what we have now. Some races back then were of course classics, but many others were dull. In that sense nothing has changed that much.

Precisely, this is not a bad race:

1970 British Grand Prix

But the notion that it was some action-a-minute extravaganza is just not true. It was strung out and processional for the most part.

They were great cars, the state-of-art at the time (like the current cars are the state-of-the-art now) -- no question about that.

But that's why the likes of Adrian Newey takes his Lotus 49 out racing at the Monaco Historic event. It's still a darn fast car, which is darn fun to drive!

Newey in his Lotus 49

The Lotus 49 or the 1970's cars may be a little more analog than a modern car, but it's not like electronic ECUs didn't come into F1 ASAP just as everything else debuts promptly in Formula One -- not to mention the crazy idea of making the engine be the structure of the car itself! (Or the aluminium monocoque, or aerospace inspired carbon fibre monocoque, or twin chassis, or semi-automatic, or CVT (banned before they entered it) etc etc.)

There were already Formula 1 cars in 1950 with (mechanical) fuel injection and no carburettors!

It's all part of Formula 1 being an engineer's plaything.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

As more and more cars on the road lack 'proper' gearboxes, F1 would look outdated if they used the more traditional gearbox construct. Here, the expectation from a modern viewer is that modern cars should have modern gearboxes.

It's a misconception that Formula 1 cars have dual-clutch gearboxes like sporty ICE road cars.

They are (by regulation) a single clutch sequential dog-box gearbox. So quite a standard racing gearbox. It's just that the actuation of the gearbox is very fast.

The FIA already acted to ban CVTs when Williams wanted to race the superior CVT in 1993.

The FIA could have banned the semi-automatic too and mandated H-patterns, but I guess the FIA didn't see the need. I don't think it matters that much, even if H-patterns are fun.

It's interesting that the H-patterns remained somewhat competitive against the (at first) finicky and unreliable semi-automatic boxes for at least 2-3 seasons.

Indycars went to sequential manual shifts, whereas obviously sequential manual shifts were (AFAIK) never used in F1. F1 constructors went straight from H-patterns to semi-automatic buttons or paddles.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

is it the sound, for sure,

I think we are very lucky that the FIA (and touring car regulators) acted to ban turbocharged engines in the late 80's and early 90's, to give fans a(nother) glorious age of great sounding naturally aspirated motors.

I imagine for a while in the mid-80's there, with F1 dominated by turbo engines and touring cars dominated by turbo Ford Sierras, it looked as if car racing would be dominated by turbocharged engines for ever more?

By all means the 1980's turbo V6 & I4 Grand Prix cars sound a little bit better than present day due to not having a MGU-H, but they are no wailing 1995 3.0L Ferrari V12 or screaming BMW 3.0 V10!

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

the tracks are too safe in some ways

Yes, there are some dire tracks like Abu Dhabi & Paul Ricard, but they still race at Suzuka, they still race at Imola, they still race at Monaco and so on. These circuits have changed very little.

At the forthcoming Imola Grand Prix, the circuit has actually removed some of the tarmac runoffs and put more gravel traps back in.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I am merely asking people why they watch it.

Because it's good?!

I can't stand the BOP in WEC and knowing that it is all so artificial.

In Indycar, they race 10 year old cars and the only development is in shock absorbers which is invisible to fans. It's all a bit random too (NASCAR is even more American and even worse on that front, of course).

WRC is a great product. The cars are fast and spectacular again, plus it's a true competition without BOP. I should watch it more, but it's a little hard to follow with the coverage behind a pay wall.

MotoGP speaks for itself. Perhaps it has moved too much towards the political preferences of the European manufacturers with the ban on custom electronics (Japanese manufacturers good at) and focus on aerodynamics and ride height devices (European manufacturers good at). But there's no BOP, so it is up to Honda and Yamaha to do a better job!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

Is that because of domination? Yes partly

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

But, the desire seems to be for a semi-spec series where the top ten qualify within 0.5 of a second rather that a true innovation test bed

People already complain about domination even though McLaren were able to close the gap and outperform Red Bull -- if the cars were more varied and spread out, would people complain more or less?

Last year's Red Bull would only run in the bottom half of the top 10, such is the progress of all the teams from season to season!

[flatlandsman]

Interesting points.

I find BoP also a sort of dual issue, but no worse than DRS and the endless rules about passing and track limits. This affects a lot of motorsport however. It also leads to no fake passing but closer racing at times.

The other stuff you mention is also funny, MotoGP the racing is arguably far better and usually more delivers, but not at the moment. What they do have is personalities and a more visible difference between riders and what they do. WRC has taken itself into an idiotic wall yet the events themselves are hugely well supported in the main, it just doesn't work as a tv sport.

As for F1 being good, that is like anything, subjective. I find it perhaps at its lowest level in my lifetime personally, but I must be wrong as it is hugely popular.

[Richard C]

Flatlandsman,

We shouldn’t try to convince you to be an F1 fan and I don’t think we are trying. Only you can know what you love and what you don’t love. It’s your decision. Like F1 or not. We are puzzled as to why you don’t follow it but still post here. But I think the best we can do is maybe point out potentially inaccuracies in areas that sit more in the objective than subjective category. In your post as to why you have lost interest in F1 I see a few themes that I found interesting.

First is that you comment on things like driver personalities, etc. that would require you to pay close attention to build supportable conclusions. For example, the “petulant drivers” or “real personalities”. As I follow the sport relatively closely, I don’t see what you are describing. Can you find individual drivers that might have some of these traits? Sure, but on the whole no. The drivers seem no worse than others I deal with on a regular basis. And as you admittedly don’t follow the sport, I wonder how you came to your conclusions without paying close attention?

The second is that you move back and forth between emotional aspects (loud cars, H pattern shifting) and I guess what I might call “legitimate competition” (“real racing”, “real passing”). I think those end up being conflicting goals. Things like loud cars are using fuel inefficiently and manual gear shifting slows the cars. The teams just focus on making the cars lap faster. This has shown that faster cars lose the qualities that many fans fell in love with many decades ago. Everyone wants the version of F1 that was happening during their formative F1 fan years. This rolls into the next item.

The third, others have mentioned this, is a very nostalgic view of the past that is clearly with rose colored glasses. If feels as if the good is remembered and the bad forgotten. You’re not unique in this view. It seems common for fans to voice a desire for things to be like they used to be, but without understanding that time can’t be wound back. Sometimes the reason it is different is truly arbitrary, but most of the time, there are real reasons why modern cars and engines are never going to look, perform or sound like they did many decades ago.

And not specifically a theme in your post, you mention “fake racing”. I am curious why you think this? While F1 requires something like DRS to aid in passing. So that might be what you are talking about, but all motorsport rules are fabricated by man. The shape of the circuits, the machinery allowed, the number of laps, permissible driver behavior, punishments, rewards, etc. There are no natural rules. So like or hate something like DRS, its just something within the ruleset and something that is equally applied to all drivers. The racing is real. Drivers are making amazing passes. Do we as fans wish it was more exciting? Do we complain? Yes. But frankly, I do think that even with a switch in dominance from Mercedes to Red Bull, I continue to be excited during races and excited for the next race, the next season, etc. If you had been watching recently you would have seen Lando Norris take is maiden F1 win. It was something most all fans likely enjoyed and it was great to watch the other drivers be just as happy about him winning as well.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard C

So like or hate something like DRS, its just something within the ruleset and something that is equally applied to all drivers.

Richard

It would be trivial to trial a few race weekends without DRS (a simple change to the weekend's sporting regulations). I would like to see them do that. I think it should be easier to defend position.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It would be trivial to trial a few race weekends without DRS (a simple change to the weekend's sporting regulations). I would like to see them do that. I think it should be easier to defend position.

It would be interesting. I don't think they are brave enough to try. As to defending positions. All of the uproar regarding Kevin Magnussen recently heavily defending his position when he is at the front of a DRS train. Short of him cutting corners to gain advantage, I generally have no problem with him defending. I mean.. you have DRS, if you can't get past him, it's your fault and while at the team level he is helping Nico, for him personally... he is racing for a position. It's not like he is lapped traffic holding the leaders up!



Anyhow, DRS as we know it is going away in 2026 and being replaced by "push to pass" (but we can't call it "push to pass"!!) as the new passing aid. Another artificial construct. Just like any other part of the sport.

Richard