Sports car/endurance sporting regulations

[Mike E]

We all love a good moan about track limits, safety cars, full course yellows, wave arounds, drive times, driver gradings blah blah blah. So here is a thread just for that. Let's keep the whinging in race and series threads to a minimum by complaining about it here! Fair enough if it's relevant to a race outcome, but general discussions about different approaches just pollute the race threads.
If you don't want to know, you don't have to read it.
And if we wander too far off piste in another thread we can be gently directed here by our fellow posters.

[AndrewCherry]

Originally Posted by Mike E

...And if we wander too far off piste in another thread...

...then presumably we'll receive a series of drive throughs of ever increasing duration?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

...then presumably we'll receive a series of drive throughs of ever increasing duration?

Eventually it becomes a grid place penalty for the next thread, which means you can't contribute until it has x-number of posts. Worst case scenario, you have to start from the pitlane only after 1 full page of the topic has been completed.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mike E

And if we wander too far off piste in another thread

Then they can be directed to SkiTalk, obviously!

Good idea Mike. Not sure how much take-up there will be but at least initially it will be good to see who gripes about what, so you are warned in advance in race threads.

[Adam43]

Great idea to encourage discussion on all aspects of sportscar racing

We can implement penalties.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Good idea Mike. Not sure how much take-up there will be but at least initially it will be good to see who gripes about what, so you are warned in advance in race threads.

Yeah, not sure it will really work but I have a genuine question.

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing?
I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

It's my candidate for worst FCY/SC procedure.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing? I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

Ah yes, IMSA pit procedures. To the best of my recollection:
- pits closed for a lap so nobody gains directly from the yellow call
- split GT/prototype pits so too many cars are not on pit lane at once
- constant wave-rounds so everybody knows their position for the restart

But I agree, this edges out SRO's procedure for its sheer, obnoxious length.

Aside from the usual justifications, one "benefit" of longer control periods is that it gives more down time for drivers on track - especially amateurs - and consequently they should be more prepared mentally and physically for the restart. I'm probably talking out my behind*, but it may be away for a series to be seen as "driver-friendly".

*Not much change there then...

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Yeah, not sure it will really work but I have a genuine question.

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing?
I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

It's my candidate for worst FCY/SC procedure.

I would rank IMSA as a close 2nd for the worst behind the SRO. But SRO's issue is a very very easy fix. Just end the "SC" part of the FCY/SC. Because they do all the clean up during the FCY part already.

IMSA is in different culture and location of course. But there are changes they can do within reason. The easiest is to implememnt "FCY" for debris and stalled car situations. Gaps are preserved and no wave arounds and no further delays. Keep currrent safety car procedures for crashes and bad weather.

The best handler of caution periods is the WEC for the non Le Mans races. Although shout out to the originators Creventic.

[WyldStallion]

This thread topic is a great idea. Kudos to Mike E for thinking of it.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by J Jay

- pits closed for a lap so nobody gains directly from the yellow call

- split GT/prototype pits so too many cars are not on pit lane at once

- constant wave-rounds so everybody knows their position for the restart

I hadn't really thought about this until you outlined it, but really the whole point of the procedure is to allow a safe way to clean up whatever happened on track by bunching the cars together in one group. But then it made me wonder if really the idea is to just get the cars back together if racing has spread them out. In other words is it really just an effort to improve the show? Especially the separate pit openings for prototypes and GT cars that way you get the classes separate and you are more likely to be near your competitors at the restart.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by joeb

I hadn't really thought about this until you outlined it, but really the whole point of the procedure is to allow a safe way to clean up whatever happened on track by bunching the cars together in one group. But then it made me wonder if really the idea is to just get the cars back together if racing has spread them out. In other words is it really just an effort to improve the show? Especially the separate pit openings for prototypes and GT cars that way you get the classes separate and you are more likely to be near your competitors at the restart.

... TenTenths would really benefit from more up-to-date media integration.

As WyldStallion said, it's an accepted/welcomed (delete as appropriate) part of racing culture in America to have the field reset during caution periods. Cautions breed cautions is an oft-repeated maxim, but if it provides the entertainment that the audience are used to, it isn't going to go away any time soon.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by J Jay

... TenTenths would really benefit from more up-to-date media integration.

As WyldStallion said, it's an accepted/welcomed (delete as appropriate) part of racing culture in America to have the field reset during caution periods. Cautions breed cautions is an oft-repeated maxim, but if it provides the entertainment that the audience are used to, it isn't going to go away any time soon.

These topics really come to head in the extended endurance races. For the GT WC Sprint races or even the IMSA 2 hour 40 minute races its not so bothersome. It is for the 24 hour races where it really stinks. Thankfully at Spa we had some green flag periods for multiple hours which really helped spread the field out. At the end of the day you know that the #32 Audi and #51 Ferrari were the class of the field.

At the Daytona 24 you can have 8 hours of non stop green, but then get 4 safety car periods within an hour and a half. With their wave around rule a car that lost 4 laps in that 8 hour stretch is back on the lead lap. Rather cheaply.

Takes away a lot of the importance of those 8 hours now. Need to keep the "endurance" in endurance racing.

[Jabbar993]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

These topics really come to head in the extended endurance races. For the GT WC Sprint races or even the IMSA 2 hour 40 minute races its not so bothersome. It is for the 24 hour races where it really stinks. Thankfully at Spa we had some green flag periods for multiple hours which really helped spread the field out. At the end of the day you know that the #32 Audi and #51 Ferrari were the class of the field.

At the Daytona 24 you can have 8 hours of non stop green, but then get 4 safety car periods within an hour and a half. With their wave around rule a car that lost 4 laps in that 8 hour stretch is back on the lead lap. Rather cheaply.

Takes away a lot of the importance of those 8 hours now. Need to keep the "endurance" in endurance racing.

Thankfully, at least some of those yellows would be "quick" or whatever they are called and the wave around does not happen during those AFAIK.

[Anyopenroad]

IMSA and SRO’s procedures are absolutely about keeping the field together. They barely pretend otherwise. Given the hyperventilating on commentary about how close and exciting the racing is and the publicity emphasis on last-lap shootouts, it’s deeply ingrained. I personally do not think of either IMSA or SRO races as being serious sporting competitions, they set out to be and succeed in being great spectacles, nothing more.

[Adam43]

There are two extremes. They purposely throw cautions (etc.) to cause close racing is one. The other is that they avoid cautions (etc.) to be complete pure.

We were close to the first a few years back in IMSA I think. We haven’t been at the later since the 50s.

I do not believe that IMSA are so close to the first now. I’d describe it as they are cautious with safety (and there are other reasons to do this) and they are happy for the consequence on the racing.

[Pandamasque]

The consequence on racing is that there is a 25-40 minute race-altering FCY every time a car spins, even if it recovers on its own, even if it recovers before the SC comes out, which also plagues IndyCar. I find this to be the most infuriating thing about American racing as a whole. It really ruins IMSA for me. It's a shame that the only series of this level with proper old school tracks is so gimmicky rules-wise.
GTD qualifying is another thing. What were they thinking? I just gave up tuning into the quali.

[Jabbar993]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

IMSA and SRO’s procedures are absolutely about keeping the field together. They barely pretend otherwise. Given the hyperventilating on commentary about how close and exciting the racing is and the publicity emphasis on last-lap shootouts, it’s deeply ingrained. I personally do not think of either IMSA or SRO races as being serious sporting competitions, they set out to be and succeed in being great spectacles, nothing more.

SRO is still a lot better in my opinion (although FCY--SC is completely ridiculous), as for example in Spa 24 hours, there were 4 situations which would most definitely result in caution if it was an IMSA race, but they were able to deal with it using local yellows/FCY only. Plus there are no passarounds.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by Jabbar993

SRO is still a lot better in my opinion (although FCY--SC is completely ridiculous), as for example in Spa 24 hours, there were 4 situations which would most definitely result in caution if it was an IMSA race, but they were able to deal with it using local yellows/FCY only. Plus there are no passarounds.

Got to give you that SRO, still has some resemblence of local cautions at times. Plus they don't do the wave around. But the fact that they clean under FCY shows that the "SC" part is just no needed and is clearly an artificial way to bunch of the grid. I'm fine with it in the sprint races other than the extra couple of minutes it takes to gather the cars. But certainly not the endurance races.

[WyldStallion]

Yeah John Doonan went crazy with the gimmicks this year. The GTD Pro qualifying is fine for this year, but it makes no sense to have it in 2022. It needs to go after Petit Le Mans.

The Daytona Q-race is worth another shot, but this time I suggest have a prototype grid and a GT only grid. Two 1 hour 25 minute races. You can call it the "Motul Twin 125"...bring back the term since NASCAR is not using it anymore.

If IMSA would adopt "FCY" for debris and stalled car situations. The number of safety car periods where you have the wave arounds will reduce a ton. You still will have it but it won't be as much of a part. Would only be used for genuine accidents/crashes and bad weather.

Somebody hook me up with Doonan, we need to talk.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

The consequence on racing is that there is a 25-40 minute race-altering FCY every time a car spins, even if it recovers on its own, even if it recovers before the SC comes out,

This is the thing that winds me up most about IMSA's procedure. There seems to be no flexibility. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they just want an excuse to bunch the field.

My ideal would be:
Use FCY whenever possible rather than SC, or local slow zones on longer tracks. If a SC is the most appropriate option then fine.
Never close the pitlane, unless the incident has actually occurred in the pitlane.
No pass around.

There would be winners and losers with the above system but it's simple, and in a world of spec (or semi-spec) cars, BoP and generally very good reliability a bit of randomness would be welcome, in my opinion.

[Jabbar993]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is the thing that winds me up most about IMSA's procedure. There seems to be no flexibility. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they just want an excuse to bunch the field.

My ideal would be:
Use FCY whenever possible rather than SC, or local slow zones on longer tracks. If a SC is the most appropriate option then fine.
Never close the pitlane, unless the incident has actually occurred in the pitlane.
No pass around.

There would be winners and losers with the above system but it's simple, and in a world of spec (or semi-spec) cars, BoP and generally very good reliability a bit of randomness would be welcome, in my opinion.

This is basically what ACO does, isn´t it? Although they do have some kind of passaround I believe.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is the thing that winds me up most about IMSA's procedure. There seems to be no flexibility. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they just want an excuse to bunch the field.

"There's a fly on my balls. I better cut them off then, just to be sure!"
"Heeey... Are you totally sure?... oh look, the fly's gone"
"No. I already grabbed the scissors! Can't stop this now!"

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Jabbar993

This is basically what ACO does, isn´t it? Although they do have some kind of passaround I believe.

They have started messing about with pit closures and pass arounds.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

State of series has just a few major points:

1. Back to a schedule that looks a lot like 2019. A good thing I think. Lime Rock and VIR retain all GT status. Double goodies.
2. GTD Pro and GTD Am will work under same BoP.
3. Single Qualifying GTD session. Grid set on overall lap time. If by a miracle a silver or bronze driver is the fastest qualifier over the GTD Pro cars, they get to start the race first.


Guessing sporting regs comes after the 2021 season ends. I have my wishes but that can be discussed on the "Sportscar/Endurance sporting regulations" thread on the main Sportscar & GT Racing page.

All of that sounds surprisingly sensible. I remember in the old GT2 days a considerable portion of the class was rather Pro Am. They usually didn't compete for class wins, but since they were the same cars they could get in the mix while the hot shoes were driving. The new look GTD seems similar, but with an extra trophy for the Am cars.

[WyldStallion]

SRO officials reallly made a mess of the 8 hours of Indy didn't they. 11 safety car periods! I can't imagine the Speedway will want them back after that. They want an endurance race not a parade with wrecks in between. Big shame after the Spa 24 went off fairly well. Safety car rules thankfully did not ruin that one.


My non-realistic wish would be for Indy 8 to become a race for IMSA GTD and Michilen Pilot Challene to run in together. But maybe this debacle will teach SRO some lessons? Maybe....errr..probably not :-(