MGB (or MGC) Rallycross car

[leonidas]

Does anybody have any info on MGB or MGC cars used in rallycross -or where we might be able to track some down? A mate of mine (MGB enthusiast rather than a rallycross chap) is expressing an interest in building a retro rallycross car.

I have vague recollections of an MGC running at one stage in the 80s - run by a guy called Robinson or Robertson maybe?

I also have a feeling there was an MGB V8 in the late 70s. But maybe some people ran 1.8 in the early days? I am too young to remember. I can't remember reading about any running as factory cars pre the 1970 BL shutdown but I could be wrong.

Any ideas or leads appreciated. Thanks.

[MGDavid]

did the rules back then allow one-off specials?, there was a V8 Rangerover chassis with MGB body on top running around in the 80s but I've no idea if it ran in rallycross

[KA]

Before my time watching rallycross, but Pete Robertson ran a BGT in the early 80's...

http://archive.bebo.com/c/photos/vie...Id=10157838566

...and there were others

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwphoto...7604943333232/

I'd have to dig out the Bill Price BL Comps Department book to be sure, but I don't think the late 60's/early 70's factory rallycross entries ever included a B- Minis, Rover 3500, Austin Maxi, Triumph 1300, Austin 1300 etc, but not a B

[rx-guru]

Richard Stok, MGB GT V8 (3528cc) in the late 1970s.

[leonidas]

Thanks. The Pete Robertson was the one I remember - very distinctive with the bonnet bulge and wide arches. Don't suppose anyone can remember or has programmes indicating what sort of engine / suspension Pete Lewis was running? That sort of thing looks a bit more 'stock' and a bit more affordable....

I think the main difficulty will be the suspension and ground clearence issue. Its possibly why there weren't that many MGBs in rallycross the first time around. I know the later MGB road cars were jacked up anyway due to safety regs but I seem to remember everyone moaning that it wrecked the handling.

[v8rob]

The pete Robertson car ran a jag irs set up, in fact it is still in his shed if anybody is interested, it was also fitted with a supercharger so if you are building a retro rallycross car you could certainly run a supercharged v8 again... I think...

[leonidas]

Thanks for that - I'll pass on. He has a shell and engine but I think it will now get built for historic rallying mainly, but keeping open the rallycross option.

Would be great to see the Robertson car back though. It does make you wonder how many other old rallycross cars are sitting in sheds waiting to be rediscovered.

[seniormax]

The nearest I can get from memory, was Rob Gibson, he of Porsche 911 and 6R4 fame, used either a MG Midget or Healey Sprite in Autocross and Rallycross during the early to mid 70's, the car was always quick and I think it had Ford Crossflow engine fitted. Rob was always a very determined opponent and talking about Pete Robertson he used a Hillman Avenger in those days.

This was in the days when the original Snetterton rallycross track used parts of the old Norwich and Home Straights, plus we drove into and out of a deep pit on the infield after we had gone round the hairpin, then back onto the Home straight for while, followed by a banked infield loop back around to the Norwich straight again.

Another driver I remember using a different car to what people remember in later years was John Greasley, the car in question was a Hillman Imp with a Rover V8 motor in the back. HAPPY DAYS.

[v8rob]

Originally Posted by seniormax

The nearest I can get from memory, was Rob Gibson, he of Porsche 911 and 6R4 fame, used either a MG Midget or Healey Sprite in Autocross and Rallycross during the early to mid 70's, the car was always quick and I think it had Ford Crossflow engine fitted. Rob was always a very determined opponent and talking about Pete Robertson he used a Hillman Avenger in those days.

This was in the days when the original Snetterton rallycross track used parts of the old Norwich and Home Straights, plus we drove into and out of a deep pit on the infield after we had gone round the hairpin, then back onto the Home straight for while, followed by a banked infield loop back around to the Norwich straight again.

Another driver I remember using a different car to what people remember in later years was John Greasley, the car in question was a Hillman Imp with a Rover V8 motor in the back. HAPPY DAYS.

I have got a picture of my dad in his avenger in front of rob in his sprite somewhere, and a pic of my dad coming out the pit at snetterton, how the car didn't break in half when it landed I don't know it must have been 10 foot in the air!!, I do remember as a kid I was about 4 years old and looking at that pit it seemed ridiculously deep!

[seniormax]

It was an interesting track that first Snetterton example, the long banked corner on the infield that joined onto the Norfolk straight was bloody good to driver round, it allowed you to power slide it all the way round.

Snetterton in late 1974 was my first Rallycross event and I remember your mum and dad being there, Rob Gibson, Ron Douglas, Trevor Hopkins, Dave Fuel, John Greasley, plus many more. Ian Smith who's old Twin Cam i had bought a few weeks before, it was his first meeting in an ex works BDA Escort.

I think this is the picture you talked about that appeared in Motoring News, with Rob Gibson behind your Dad. There is also a photo of my old Escort.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

[v8rob]

those facebook links don't work, out of interest did you used to be called Tom?

[seniormax]

No it's always been Paul.

[Lapin127]

I have just come across this reference to my old rallycross MGB GT V8 - if anyone is still interested, I will write up the full details of the 2 cars I ran in 1976/77 (a white car and a black lightweight car) - neither was particularly successful!

Pete.

[Hampton Caught]

Hi Pete,

Yes please!!!

If you have any photos of your cars either on the track or the paddock, I'd be especially interested. I build 1/43 scale model cars and have a fine collection of rallycross cars, mostly 6R4s but with the TR7 V8 of Warwick Barnes as well.

I'd be delighted to see any photos you may have that could help me build an accurate model.

Many thanks, Steve

[leonidas]

Thanks Pete - yes, it would be fantastic to hear more about the specs, build info etc.

[Lapin127]

The first MGB GT V8 I built was in 1976, based on a 1966 BGT, which had minor front end damage. It was fitted with a Rover 3.5 V8 engine, supplied by Ian Harwood of Ellesmere Port; gearbox was a Jag E Type, with adapter plate, again supplied by Ian Harwood. Rear axle was from a Mk2 3.8 Jag – the worst part of the car, as it was far too wide and needed 4” wheelarches to cover it. Even with the arches, there was still insufficient suspension travel, so handling on bumpy circuits was hopeless!
The axle was located by upper radius arms and ‘slipper’ leaf springs, as used by the Works Escort for a short time, with Spax dampers in turrets. Front suspension was the standard wishbones, with the upper lever arm dampers (!), assisted by additional Spax dampers, steering by the standard rack. The engine was modified by Tony and Bruce of Wessex to solid cam followers (alloy inserts pressed into the cam follower housings and machined to use Ford Crossflow cam followers – Ford Consul/Zephyr/Zodiac adjustable rockers replaced the standard Rover rockers). The cam was a Rally spec, supplied by Will Sparrow, who had some connections with Rover, possibly through Rob Lyall, who was involved in Rover development. I used the standard SU carbs. Wheels were 5.5 x 13 Minilites front and 6 x 13 rear.

During the first few events, apart from the dreadful handling, it was clear that overheating was going to be a problem – any hold up on the start line or slow moving in heavy going caused the temperature gauge to go off the clock (anyone remember the infamous Rallycross at Mallory, where the organisers were under the impression that Rallycross consisted of mudlpugging and the event was abandoned shortly after the start?) Road cars at that time did not have the powerful ducted electric fans that we take as the norm today, and the aftermarket accessory fans were little more than modified heater fans, so without a belt driven fan running at crankshaft speed, little air could be pulled through the rad – there was insufficient space to fit this sort of cooling anyway.

I can’t remember any successes during that year – it was very good off a dry start line, but as soon as a slippery bend arrived, everyone overtook me and a wet day just produced a lot of wheelspin – traction was hopeless! I did one event at Valkenswaard, finished around 50th from 52 starters! (Charlie Irving from Burscough took the car over to Holland for me – a great character and a very helpful man, who arranged my first trips over there in 1973 with my 1760 Escort).

At the end of the year, the car was stripped of all the running gear, moulds were made of the rear wings, arches and tailgate and the shell was sold to Richard Stok from Coventry, who rebuilt it with independent Jag rear suspension – not sure how this was allowed, as the regs stated that cars should have the same style of original suspension, mounted on the original mounts.

End of part one – in part 2, I will give details of the lightweight black car, which was a lot better! I have some old photo slides, which I will convert and display.

[BertMk2]

Excellent stuff Sorry about the delay in it appearing - the post got dragged into the moderator approval queue and I've only just cleared it. Photos of the car would be great.

[Hampton Caught]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the first post, very interesting stuff.

Was this the car you used at Brands Hatch in its original rallycross format, whereby the cars entered Paddock Hill bend and immediately turned back on themselves to join the Cooper Straight (thus cutting off the whole of Druids), before cutting across the grass again to rejoin the start/finish straight at the end of Clark Curve?

I can remember being there for my first ever rallycross event and watching the MGB GT V8 hurtling at epic speeds towards Paddock Hill, but often being unhappy at turning right on to the rough stuff! I recall there being some Vauxhall Firenzas having the same handling 'issues'.

Such a shame that Brands Hatch seems to have turned its back on rallycross. The Grand Prix events in December through the 80's were not to be missed!

Any photos and anecdotes you can share will be warmly received.

Cheers, Steve

[Lapin127]

I never used the MGB at Brands Hatch, but I did do the first Brands Hatch event in 1975 (?) in my 1511 Wessex Mini. The track was not what you saw - we did a right just after the Pits, across the grass and back onto the Cooper Straight, then off again at Surtees, back onto the Start/Finish straight, not very interesting, but that day was freezing cold and very wet, so was very slippery. In practice, I totally lost it at the first bend and somehow went sideways all the way down the muddy grass bit to hit the tarmac exactly right, foot down and 3rd fastest! I think that Bruce Bamber did very well in a Wessex Mini, sponsored by Bose, who had a very comfortable double deck hospitality bus - very nice and warm, but they didn't seem to want to give access to muddy drivers, or the very pregnant wife of the Wessex Racing accountant, in the bus!

[Hampton Caught]

Hi Lapin,

Thanks for your message. It looks like we've described the very same track layout but in different ways.

Yes, it was very wet and greasy for everyone, competitors such as yourself and spectators like me. I was usually to be found at the top of the old wooden grandstand on the outside of Paddock Hill which gave superb views cross the whole track.

I was too young at that point to have a camera, so no pictures from back then, sad to say.

Cheers, Steve

[richardracer]

Hello there,

This is Richard Stok. As mentioned above, I bought the MgbGT shell off Pete Robertson and built it up as a V8 rally cross car for 1978 season with a Jag e type IRS with low ratio diff at rear and Triumph Vitesse front suspension. We made fiberglass doors and tailgate from Pete's moulds and use fiberglass front wings and bonnet. The flared rear arches looked like a Quattro and were in Stella courtesy of Pete's original. Strong and easy to repair. Engine evolved from ex scrapper on SU carbs to efi before TR8 and Vitesse. Solid lifters and crane cam, as described above. We quickly broke a Rover 3500s box and replaced it with a 4 speed Jag box, before SD1 boxes became available.

I have a photo record of the build (pre digital era) and a magazine article from the period. Loved that car, great traction off the line, but too heavy and not enough power. Oversteer on tap with back end roll centre too high.

If you are still interested, email me at richard@stok.co.uk.

Cheers

Richard Stok ( aka ricahrdracer)

[richardracer]

Originally Posted by richardracer

Hello there,

This is Richard Stok. As mentioned above, I bought the MgbGT shell off Pete Robertson and built it up as a V8 rally cross car for 1978 season with a Jag e type IRS with low ratio diff at rear and Triumph Vitesse front suspension. We made fiberglass doors and tailgate from Pete's moulds and use fiberglass front wings and bonnet. The flared rear arches looked like a Quattro and were in Stella courtesy of Pete's original. Strong and easy to repair. Engine evolved from ex scrapper on SU carbs to efi before TR8 and Vitesse. Solid lifters and crane cam, as described above. We quickly broke a Rover 3500s box and replaced it with a 4 speed Jag box, before SD1 boxes became available.

I have a photo record of the build (pre digital era) and a magazine article from the period. Loved that car, great traction off the line, but too heavy and not enough power. Oversteer on tap with back end roll centre too high.

If you are still interested, email me at richard@stok.co.uk.

Cheers

Richard Stok ( aka ricahrdracer)

Ps I raced at Brands Hatch in 79 and 80. Car was bright red and sponsored by Pop Rivets. Lots of white dots on the car ( all cut out farm Sticky back Fablon"
,)

[richardracer]

Hi Folks,

A minor correction - shell was purchased from Pete Lewis.

Photo record now digitised, here are a couple of shots of the car in action (when I can work out how to attach an image.....)

Richard

[simonmgc]

I have found this thread via google and makes for interesting reading. I have just bought an MGC Roadster that was circuit raced in the 70's with a Jag rear axle and some super wide wheel arches. It now is in fully rally spec and has major history of completing the Inca Trail around South America in 2001 when owned by Mike Knox.
I will try and add a photo.
Simon.

[richardracer]

A bit late, but better than nothing. Thanks to trackside photographers of teh day for the action shots. All copyrights acknowledged.

Richard