Porsche 997 - Development Curve

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 12:37 (Ref:1920255)

We have had a very civil and interesting debate on another forum concerning the status of development of the Porsche 997 vis a vis the Ferrari 430 GT.
It was so interesting (to me) that I thought I’d start a debate here.

The question is whether Porsche is just lagging behind in the “development curve” in relation to the Ferrari, or whether Porsche got its figures wrong when designing the 997.

fausto · 24 May 2007, 12:39 (Ref:1920256)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

We have had a very civil and interesting debate on another forum concerning the status of development of the Porsche 997 vis a vis the Ferrari 430 GT.
It was so interesting (to me) that I thought I’d start a debate here.

The question is whether Porsche is just lagging behind in the “development curve” in relation to the Ferrari, or whether Porsche got its figures wrong when designing the 997.

Maybe the only thing wrong is the engine position...

SebringMG · 24 May 2007, 12:45 (Ref:1920259)

More to the point Ferrari is a year ahead - they have more data on the car than POrsche have so the Ferrari should still be ahead. Porsche may be slightly ahead on their particular curve but because Ferrari have a years extra work they still appear to be ahead !!

You would expect POrsche to have caught up by the end of the year i would think.

And yes the engine is in the wrong place

gwyllion · 24 May 2007, 12:56 (Ref:1920267)

I think Porsche might shine at Le Mans, but on other tracks the Ferrari will stay ahead all because of superior weight distributions. I suspect the Porsche GT2 domination days are over. The only real solution would be to base their next GT2 on Cayman

fausto · 24 May 2007, 13:01 (Ref:1920273)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I think Porsche might shine at Le Mans, but on other tracks the Ferrari will stay ahead all because of superior weight distributions. I suspect the Porsche GT2 domination days are over. The only real solution would be to base their next GT2 on Cayman

Finally!

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 13:22 (Ref:1920286)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I think Porsche might shine at Le Mans, but on other tracks the Ferrari will stay ahead all because of superior weight distributions. I suspect the Porsche GT2 domination days are over. The only real solution would be to base their next GT2 on Cayman

The word on the street is that Porsche will not support the “racing development” of the Cayman as it would conflict with its 911 flagship policy.

The Altzen brothers have done some development of their own on the Cayman, and have a project to “squeeze” the Carrera GT V10 into their car.

http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl=...006-18,GGGL:en

Warning: Car is also excellent to look at!

Sean Edwards · 24 May 2007, 13:29 (Ref:1920288)

The Porsche is nice to drive.

Well most of you think that Ferrari have had a year head start, but that is not true. Porsche did not race their 997 last year (except the Spa 24 hours), but they did a hell of alot of testing.

Porsche will not like being beat and will soon correct this problem and bring out an updated kit for the 997 flaws. The ferrari is very good at fast corners and on the brakes.

I hope that we get on the pace of the Ferrari soon, because I want to beat those Italian buckets

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 14:07 (Ref:1920308)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Edwards

The Porsche is nice to drive.

Well most of you think that Ferrari have had a year head start, but that is not true. Porsche did not race their 997 last year (except the Spa 24 hours), but they did a hell of alot of testing.

Porsche will not like being beat and will soon correct this problem and bring out an updated kit for the 997 flaws. The ferrari is very good at fast corners and on the brakes.

I hope that we get on the pace of the Ferrari soon, because I want to beat those Italian buckets

Hi Sean – You just the man I wanted to hear from.

As you can tell, I am a Porsche fanatic.
I can not begin to tell you guys how much it pains me to see the 997 being so uncompetitive (more so in the ALMS).
I have grown up always having a Porsche in the household (more than 47 years) and most of my life it has been a 911 (in one form or the other).
I'm not trying to be negative, but it this has not been an auspicious start, and it's certainly not what we (I) expect from Porsche.
Is 1 second just too much of a gain to expect from development in the near future?
Is not the problem also that the 6 cylinder engine is nearing the upper most regions of its full potential. (in its atmospheric state)?
As for the new kit, I know you can’t say too much about it, but when are you expecting to get it?
Please report back on testing (if you can)

Porsche and their drivers are always in my thoughts! - Go For It!

Fogelhund · 24 May 2007, 14:33 (Ref:1920318)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Edwards

Well most of you think that Ferrari have had a year head start, but that is not true. Porsche did not race their 997 last year (except the Spa 24 hours), but they did a hell of alot of testing.

Ferrari did a similar amount of testing in 05' though.....

ThePenguin · 24 May 2007, 14:41 (Ref:1920325)

With the Porsche takeover of Volkswagon Group there hasn't been as much money for developing the 997 considering that the money that is availibe has also gone to develop the RS Spyder which will probably help them reach their goal of an LMP1 dominating car.

gwyllion · 24 May 2007, 14:43 (Ref:1920328)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The word on the street is that Porsche will not support the “racing development” of the Cayman as it would conflict with its 911 flagship policy.

I am totally aware of Porsche policy. They also refused any collaboration on a race version of the Carrera GT.

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 14:47 (Ref:1920332)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am totally aware of Porsche policy. They also refused any collaboration on a race version of the Carrera GT.

WELL....EXCUSE ME!

gwyllion · 24 May 2007, 15:00 (Ref:1920343)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

With the Porsche takeover of Volkswagon Group there hasn't been as much money for developing the 997 considering that the money that is availibe has also gone to develop the RS Spyder which will probably help them reach their goal of an LMP1 dominating car.

I am totally unaware of any takeover by Porsche on VAG. 30+ % is nowhere close to an absolute majority

The VAG stocks were mainly bought by cash reserve. I doubt this influenced Porsche Motorsport in any way.

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 15:06 (Ref:1920346)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am totally unaware of any takeover by Porsche on VAG. 30+ % is nowhere close to an absolute majority

Agreed, it is nowhere near an absolute majority, but they are the biggest shareholder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The VAG stocks were mainly bought by cash reserve. I doubt this influenced Porsche Motorsport in any way.

Agreed!

Fogelhund · 24 May 2007, 15:07 (Ref:1920347)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am totally unaware of any takeover by Porsche on VAG. 30+ % is nowhere close to an absolute majority

According to German market laws, that is considered a takeover. Keep in mind that the Piech family also has a block of shares, which gets them pretty close to an absolute majority.

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 15:15 (Ref:1920349)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

According to German market laws, that is considered a takeover. Keep in mind that the Piech family also has a block of shares, which gets them pretty close to an absolute majority.

Hi Foglhund - its not exactly like that.

German law forces a takeover bid by the shareholder if they purchase 30% (or more) of the shares. Porsche have made that bid (at very low prices per share as they were never interested in buying out VAG) and the bid has been rejected.

Fogelhund · 24 May 2007, 15:42 (Ref:1920361)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Hi Foglhund - its not exactly like that.

German law forces a takeover bid by the shareholder if they purchase 30% (or more) of the shares. Porsche have made that bid (at very low prices per share as they were never interested in buying out VAG) and the bid has been rejected.

Your right, thanks... too many meds today.. sorry.

gwyllion · 24 May 2007, 16:26 (Ref:1920390)

Back on topic.

Looking at the pace of Risi in ALMS, I would be amased if Porsche can challenge Ferrari by just releasing an update.

It is my impression that the fundamental design choices Porsche made (namely higher weight for wider tires) and of course bad position of the engine (inherent to the 911) don't for for the ALMS circuits.

The Badger · 24 May 2007, 17:09 (Ref:1920431)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Your right, thanks... too many meds today.. sorry.

Not enough mate

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 17:10 (Ref:1920432)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Your right, thanks... too many meds today.. sorry.

No problem! Glad I could help.

Take it easy on the meds mate!
I want you around for some time.

The Badger · 24 May 2007, 17:12 (Ref:1920433)

Le mans is Porsche's stomping ground and I would be very surprised to see their 997 beaten there .

Im also a little biased towards Porsche ..... always cheer for them . But at the end of the day , a great battle is what counts the most .

Im sure they have pulled out all the stops for LM and have a few weapons lined up for the race ..... one being called Norbert Singer !!!

Has anyone found a betting shop at Le Mans , ive always wanted to have a flutter on the race ?

HORNDAWG · 24 May 2007, 17:24 (Ref:1920442)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Back on topic.

Looking at the pace of Risi in ALMS, I would be amased if Porsche can challenge Ferrari by just releasing an update.

It is my impression that the fundamental design choices Porsche made (namely higher weight for wider tires) and of course bad position of the engine (inherent to the 911) don't for for the ALMS circuits.

They need to get more torque out of the engine to compensate for the extra weight and larger circumference tires w/ larger contact patch. Maybe just a rod length change(and head?), if it will fit without major case work.??

L.P.

Spyderman · 24 May 2007, 17:32 (Ref:1920450)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Back on topic.

Looking at the pace of Risi in ALMS, I would be amased if Porsche can challenge Ferrari by just releasing an update.

It is my impression that the fundamental design choices Porsche made (namely higher weight for wider tires) and of course bad position of the engine (inherent to the 911) don't for for the ALMS circuits.

gwyllion, you and I don't agree on much, but I think that you may have a point.
What I find strange is that Porsche seems not to have done the math (as thoroughly as they should have) before opting for that design. They obviously underestimated the Ferrari’s potential, and that is very unlike Porsche.

As for the rear engine format, besides the obvious disadvantages, it is also limiting in that it does not allow for an 8 cylinder engine to be placed there.

I am however, interested to see what solution they come up with....and they will. They are Porsche... and there is no substitute.

Bullett · 25 May 2007, 02:00 (Ref:1920718)

Could Porsche use their GT2 and turbo engine for the next GT2 Class car? Or is that illegal? It could help with the lack of torque and get some more power

Asa · 25 May 2007, 02:39 (Ref:1920727)

Maybe Porsche Motorsport is distracted by the development of the Spyder.

Also, I think many good teams left Porsche either last year or after last year. They lost Freisinger and GruppeM in consecutive years. I think that is not good for development.

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