How to KEEP one's Grade?

[Stuart Hill]

Ok, lot's of good advice flying around to aid new and less-experienced marshals to advance through the current grading scheme, but what about those of us who are quite happy at our current level?

As I read the scheme now, even after over 20yrs on-the-bank, I will still have to attend both Flag and Incident Training days to ensure I retain my current grades. I used to have no problem with this, in the old days under the BMMC, but nowadays, apparently, there are Assessors and Buddies on-the-bank to aid and assist new marshals through their grading.

So, when I offer my MSA registration card to the Post Chief (sorry, Observer), and they sign for my attendance, why can they not make an assessment of my abilities and my deservance (or not) of retention of grade? Surely if they can assess someone "grading-up", then they should also be trusted to confirm if I should or should not retain my grade?

Have I missed something?

[CombeMarshal]

So you want to stay at your current level, reading from this and the other thread, you said you'd start a new one and like magic, here it is!
Bit more difficult not to upgrade now as attendance now counts towards it, you could try attaching a cover note when you fill up you PRC?
otherwise make sure someone objects to your upgrade when they get published!
Still waiting for my approved one to come back!

[Nighthawk]

Assessors and Buddies as i understand it far and few between.
Post Chief he signs for your attendance and if need be can make comments as to your performance.
If you need to stay at your current grade just do the amount of meetings needed a year. as for training days i alternate each year.

[Nighthawk]

Remember the little rule - you wont be asked to something that you wish not to.
As a post chief i would not expect you to do a duty that you object to even if your grade denotes you could.....

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

Remember the little rule - you wont be asked to something that you wish not to.
As a post chief i would not expect you to do a duty that you object to even if your grade denotes you could.....

How can anyone possibly post that all marshals can and should expect to do a.n. other duty if everyone thinks like you??

MANY times are marshals asked to do "That which they are not comfortable with". see loads of other threads.

That is not the point of this thread.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

Bit more difficult not to upgrade now as attendance now counts towards it,

where is this stated please?
I only have attendance cards signed so how can I be upgraded to something that I'm not grading for?

[Nighthawk]

A quote from the MSA Revised Grading Scheme.

"The Scheme will not require anyone to perform duties they do not wish to,"

I have never had anyone refuse to do a duty, But the option is threre.
And yes on a post where man power is small we all have to do 1 or 2 dutys
its unavoidable.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

And yes on a post where man power is small we all have to do 1 or 2 dutys
its unavoidable.

Agreed that it happens, Disagree that it should. Many reasons why but they are discussed at length in other threads.

"The Scheme will not require anyone to perform duties they do not wish to,"

but does not seem to give any credit (or guidance) to any marshal who is more than happy to stay where they are, ie: Keep current grade.

Again, why do I need to attend training days when most of us agree that........

"the best training takes place on-post" and so the Post Chief etc should be able to pass comment as regards a marshal retaining their grade. (see thread title).

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

grade? Surely if they can assess someone "grading-up", then they should also be trusted to confirm if I should or should not retain my grade?

Have I missed something?

Yep........the £5 note!

[Stephen Green]

It is my understanding that the rule has always been you need to attend a training day at least once every 2nd year.

[CombeMarshal]

Guess my problem is I'll do any duty that needs doing!
Thought from your posts you had the new stlye PRC's signed, if it is the attendance cards what's the worry?

[Nighthawk]

Yeh but surley you only upgrade when you wish.
THere is no minimuim or maximuim time period you must spend in a grade before seeking an upgrade.

To maintain a grade you must do 1 training day every 2 years and minimuim 4 days on the bank per year.

We all attend training days.....

[Asp]

I think it's an extremely hypothetical question - has anyone ever heard of the MSA invoking their right to request someone's (old)Green Registration Card / (new) PRC to check that they're meeting the requirements to keep a grade?!

However, from the Grading Scheme guide:
"To maintain any grade will mean doing 4 days per year in that grade and at least one training session for that grade every two years"
For an experienced marshal who does flag and incident work, I'd recommend at least 2 in each - but as the purpose of the "5 days other discipline" in upgrading to Experienced Marshal is to ensure that the marshal has some experience in it when asked to assist, I don't view it as essential.
Similarly, there's no requirement AFAIK to attend a specific training day. As Nighthawk says, if you attend a training day each year - alternate between flag & incident - which will definitely be over and above the required.

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

Bit more difficult not to upgrade now as attendance now counts towards it, you could try attaching a cover note when you fill up you PRC?

Don't really see this one myself?
If you don't want to upgrade, you don't need to do anything with the PRC surely?!
I've got several signatures on my Card now for Post Chief. As far as I'm concerned, this doesn't mean I'm upgrading (However, should I eventually decide to, the XO on the assessment day can look at them to see my experience in the role to assist deciding if they should approve the upgrade).
When I get 10 Signatures on the card, it's not going to compel me to ask for an assessment day.

However, as it is, should my card be requested to check I'm doing to required to keep my grade - the requisite person can look at it, confirm the number of days, and go away happy!

[gachjoel]

It states in the back of your Personal Record Card.......

"If you are happy to remain at your current grade our only requirement is that you marshal on four events per year and attend a minimum of one training day every two years.
Registration cards are issued on entry and then every two years,if you are happy to remain at your current grade,you need do nothing,a new licence will be sent.
please keep a record of the events you`ve attended and the training days as we will be verifying licences on a random basis throughout the year "

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

It states in the back of your Personal Record Card.......

"If you are happy to remain at your current grade our only requirement is that you marshal on four events per year and attend a minimum of one training day every two years.
Registration cards are issued on entry and then every two years,if you are happy to remain at your current grade,you need do nothing,a new licence will be sent.
please keep a record of the events you`ve attended and the training days as we will be verifying licences on a random basis throughout the year "

Exactly!!!!! why should a marshal (of any grade) doing for example 30 days per year, then have to find time for a training day when they could be assessed during a meeting as to their capabilities?

[numbersix]

No-one can upgrade at any level without an official assessment undertaken by an Examining Post Chief/Observer. If you want to retain your grade, just don't ask for one and carry on as normal, remembering to get at least 4 attendance sigs during the year and do a training session every two years.
Trainer Buddies are ordinary marshals, often red-badge, who have undergone half a day's training in order to help new marshals with questions. They cannot assess. Neither can MSA Trainers who are able to give talks to small groups at training meetings. The 'senior marshal on post' can give attendance sigs if at red-badge level or higher. Greens, in the event of them being an acting post chief (??) I think should direct sig requirers to a more senior marshal, Chief Marshal or a suitably ranked PC at a nearby post.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

Exactly!!!!! why should a marshal (of any grade) doing for example 30 days per year, then have to find time for a training day when they could be assessed during a meeting as to their capabilities?

Half see your point Stu.......but by attending a Training Day, you ("We/I") might learn something new......whether it be regulations or the fact that the Black & Yellow flag is being re-introduced again for 2009!

A few years back I was told that if I didn't attent the training day that year - I would lose my grade. (It was no one of any real importance who told me!).
I worked shifts and it just so happened that I was working on the dates of the training days.
I said "Let Them Take My Grade Away" - they'll then be one X-Obs less......at a time when they are crying out for people to become observers.

Needless to say I'm still here doing what I do (Delete where applicable) Best*/Worst*

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

or the fact that the Black & Yellow flag is being re-introduced again for 2009!

In my wildest dreams!! even in those, the clubs still can't work-out how to use it. Had my best and worst days marshalling because of various clubs lack of understanding of that flag and how to use it best.

see other threads, don't start me on that one!!

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Half see your point Stu.......but by attending a Training Day, you ("We/I") might learn something new......whether it be regulations or the fact that the Black & Yellow flag is being re-introduced again for 2009!

...or how the new upgrading scheme is going to work...

[Chris Hobson]

Oh Dear,

One of the points of training days is to ensure everyone is totally up to date with new developments, to discuss present rules etc and to keep on top of our game.

We have not increased or changed any of the requirements for keeping a grade - in fact we have made it easier. Al we ask is you attend one triaing sesson every two years ( a sesson covering the grade you want to keep). Surely that is not too much to ask?

We will also be looking at standardising more of the annual training days' content to ensure a more consistent message is put across and to remove the perceived need some people have to attend multiple training days each season.

As always, if you have a constructive criticism or suggestion then please let us have it - we are constantly looking to improve the system.

[Woolley]

I've always tried to attend training days as I find they're useful refreshers, I do sometimes pick up something new, and if nothing else someone may learn from my experience in return. Curious now about the training days per grade. So that's speed, incident and flag for me. Speed event tends to cover incident pretty well anyway, although not circuit based much of it is the same. Flag sessions I find a bit iffy. You can't really practice flags without a race going on and training in that is definitely best done on post - if only there was ever another flaggie with you and you're not observing at the same time! Discussion forums are usually quite entertaining, other than that I really need bulletins of useful info (like the reintroduction of the B/Y, the latest version(s) of other safety car regs, etc. Might be better to run those as part sessions along with incident because a) that's really all an experienced flaggie needs and b) it's helpful for someone who doesn't really want to do it but might get put upon.

I still find the assumption that everyone is capable of excelling at incident, flag and observing a strange one, not borne out in my experience.

[BeeJ]

I look at it like nurses. My mum was a midwife until she retired and evey 4 years had to go on a 1/2 week residential refresher course to keep up with new methods and procedures. I intend to do one training day a year just to keep abreast of any changes in methods etc. And also they are a good way of bridging the off season gap :-)

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I worked shifts and it just so happened that I was working on the dates of the training days.

Just the same as you Mark, sometimes the job works against race days, sometimes against training days. Missed a couple in my time, but nobody ever mentioned downgrading.
If ANY club holding a meeting at Brands wanted to see my PRC before allocating me, I'd be home before sign on closed.
I just fill in my own card and if I'm doing it so wrong then I await the verdict from one of our grade administrators at my annual performance review.

Training for post chiefs on our role in administering this scheme on behalf the well intentioned that implemented it. Now that would help. At this years training day, attempts at explanations were to say the least confused. Note attempts; more than one person thought they understood what it was all about. Right.

The very fact that we're still "confused" about much of the scheme's workings after at least 6 months of full implementation should indicate something.

So Chris H, standardising training - yes please. Now if only you could standardise procedures and practices between circuits...

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

Al we ask is you attend one triaing sesson every two years ( a sesson covering the grade you want to keep).

At the moment though, training days are still based around duties (ie. course/fire/flags etc) and not around grades (ie. track marshal/experienced marshal).

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Half see your point Stu.......but by attending a Training Day, you ("We/I") might learn something new......whether it be regulations or the fact that the Black & Yellow flag is being re-introduced again for 2009!

Can I just point out that the reference to the B/Y flag was purely hypothetical and has no factual substance!

(Just in case somebody was dusting theirs off!!)