Cars that were too clever for their own good....

[Mike Bell]

To explain that title, I read in several places recently that the BMW i3 is unlikely to be directly replaced at the end of it's model 'cycle'. Possibly the i8 also. Ignoring the fact that the former is a BEV or range extender EV, it's a very advanced car regardless, with carbon fibre 'life cell' (body), aluminium and magnesium underpinnings, a high proportion of recycled materials with futuristic design for the interior, and extremely high build quality. Both it and the i8 are assembled in a 'carbon neutral' facility, and the CF for the bodies is produced by the same company that produces it for Boeing and others, their factory being hydro-electric powered.

So why is it unlikely to be replaced with anything so clever. Must be cost? My guess is that BMW will produce a single platform that can be used for Electric, Hybrid or ICE power, and that will appear under a range of more conventional (build and looks) cars. Higher volume and lower cost....

That got me thinking about other cars that were advanced for their time but never replaced at the end of their model cycle. Audi A2 anyone? (Not the current thing!) I drove one in period, and it was so good in many ways, which is why a pristine used one is very saleable now. It pioneered the use of a full aluminium monocoque in a small mass produced car, but apparently was extremely expensive to produce. That made it relatively costly to buy and not a good profit maker (if at all). No doubt it's non conventional looks lost a few sales as well, and perhaps that is working against the i3 also....

There must be other cars that never succeeded, despite their credentials, or never 'caught on' with the buying public.......?

[Graz]

Citroen DS maybe?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Graz

Citroen DS maybe?

Yes and no, probably! It was replaced (after 20 yrs?) by the CX which was still pretty advanced. My choice of Citroen that gets closest to the title would be the rotary engined GS Birotor, which leads to another candidate, the NSU RO80! Still looks good today......

[GregUK]

Originally Posted by Graz

Citroen DS maybe?

A massively advanced car for its time - it was released before the A55 Austin Cambridge - but they did sell 1½ million of them!

I offer the Aston Martin Lagonda - complete with cathode ray tube instruments. Just 645 made (I'm slightly surprised it's that many!!)

[Adam43]

AM Works once showed me how they were using Sat Nav screens to replace the old CRT TV instruments on the ones they were restoring.

[grantp]

Citroen SM.

[JHamilton]

I'm not sure how advanced y'all would consider it, but the VW Phaeton comes to mind.

[Mike Bell]

While neither the Citroen SM or VW Phaeton moved the game on tech wise, they were both designed to push their manufacturer into a different market, and weren’t particularly successful at doing so. Both ‘glorious failures’ in my book, but the Phaeton did begat the Bentley Continental GT, so we’ve that to be grateful for! IMHO the VW is a very handsome car, like the original Audi A8, and if in need of anything that big, would be a good used purchase....

[Graz]

Got one - the Amphicar!!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Graz

Got one - the Amphicar!!

And it had everything going for it- gawky looks, Triumph Herald mechanicals, steel construction. I’m sure I’ve heard it described as having the worst of both worlds- poor road car and rubbish boat....... But, it did attempt to give us something no other car of the era did, so definitely too clever for its own good!

Was there ever a production ‘flying car’? I’m sure some prototypes have emerged since the 1950s, and the idea is still being mooted......

[joeb]

GM EV1 would have to rank up there. So I took to the Google's and Road and Track had this article


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...of-their-time/

[grantp]

Á propos the Citroen DS

http://www.coys.co.uk/cars/1963-citr...let-by-chapron

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by joeb

GM EV1 would have to rank up there.

It certainly was well ahead of it’s time. Still looks pretty futuristic now! Some good info here- https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/h...-of-electrics/ This also worth a read- http://www.ev1.org Politics seem to have helped the EV1s demise.....


The Road and Track article has another contender, in this case a hybrid- the original Honda Insight. Like the EV1, a two seater coupe with faired in rear wheels that has a developed a bit of a cult following now. I also remember one competing in tarmac rallying in the U.K.! Only 250 were sold here, but considerably more in the USA. Thanks to Road and Track again- http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...data-obsessed/

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by joeb

GM EV1 would have to rank up there. So I took to the Google's and Road and Track had this article


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...of-their-time/

There is a documentary about that called 'Who Killed the Electric Car".

[JHamilton]

OOOOoooo, I got one! The 1962-64 Chrysler Turbine.

Here's an old Jay Leno's Garage on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2A5ijU3Ivs

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

OOOOoooo, I got one! The 1962-64 Chrysler Turbine.

I want one! A lot of thought went into that installation.

I must spend some time in Mr Leno's garage, he's my kind of car collector....

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I must spend some time in Mr Leno's garage, he's my kind of car collector....

Yes, he likes everything. It was sitting between a McLaren F1 and a Chevy Volt, both of them his.

[wnut]

Great thread Mike.

I think Jay is your kind of car collector, he looks for unique and technologically advanced cars for their day.

The 1925 Doble Steam Car, probably still the most advanced steam car ever built.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACO-HXvrRz8






There is also his Baker electric car of 1901.

Very useable and advanced car for its day.

Both overtaken by gasoline.

[Mike Bell]

Thanks, I watched the Doble video and it made my day! What a fantastic piece of engineering for 1925. I think the price new, $25k, likely restricted sales somewhat. I was amused by Jays’s comment that suggested stopping the car with the original brakes was ‘challenging’, and so they’ve changed over to discs.....

[wnut]

Glad you enjoyed it Mike.

You're right $25000 for a car in 1925 would have been a lot, and no brakes to boot. I think modern brakes are a good idea on vintage cars, Leno does a lot of work with Willwood, and ensures the classics can be returned to original if need be.

Jay Leno's Garage has a lot of really unique and interesting cars, and his love and work restoring them is admirable.
A worm hole that you can disappear down for hours on end.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by wnut

Jay Leno's Garage- A worm hole that you can disappear down for hours on end.

That’s what I’m afraid of.....

[GregUK]

I give you the Gordon Murray Designs T25 and T27. As you'd expect from the man, they seem like really neat cars.

But they have quickly segwayed from obscurity to oblivion ....

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by GregUK

I give you the Gordon Murray Designs T25 and T27. As you'd expect from the man, they seem like really neat cars.

But they have quickly segwayed from obscurity to oblivion ....

Hard to believe from the same hand that drew the McLaren F1 and new TVR..... But my understanding is that the two ‘T’ cars were built to demonstrate Murray’s ‘iStream’ manufacturing process, which I think is still under evaluation by a mainstream car company or two. There was a carbon fibre Yamaha concept designed around it, which was shown at Tokyo Show in 2015. Neither the T25 Petrol or T27 Electric cars have gone into production unfortunately, but there still time for something to come from them.... Not yet dead!

[wnut]

How about the Chevy SS, or Holden in Australia.

The car was delivered to the U.S. so loaded down in unwanted gadgetry like "skip shift" etc. etc. that it cost $55 000 rather than $30 000 dollars and sank like a stone in the U.S. market for this and a number of other reasons. Trying to out BMW BMW.

Piece by Doug DeMuro here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfJjH4oZDTA

Skip to 17:00 mins.

This goes straight to a major bugbear of mine that modern cars are just too complicated and full of things that cost money require maintenance and need constant and expensive maintenance.

Car manufacturers version of GPS has to be the worst, but is closely followed by a whole bunch of expensive trash that adds nothing to a car.

Electric everything.

Hybrid PU's.

[grantp]

Following in from wnut's points one might observe that any car that can be stolen from outside a house without the need for a key or some sort of in car activation device might be considered to be too clever for their own good.

Or, as my elder daughter related this evening, her husband was meeting up with someone and heading off to a meeting and she went along to drop him off.

Keyless entry and push button start, he drove there, she drove back. He still had the fob in his pocket. The car had not been stopped when they swapped over.

There was a spare key (and a spare car) at home. However she had been intending to stop for fuel on the way home but changed her mind. Just as well because absent the fob she would have been stranded at a fuel station, blocking a pump and with a baby in the car.

Which story, no doubt not uncommon these days, might suggest that a large number of not very special cars on the roads are too clever for our own good let alone theirs!

And all of the electric wizardry, endemic from around 10 years ago in even relatively modest vehicles, is very likely to make something with a body construction capable of lasting around 20 years with average treatment fall foul of engine and other electronics obsolescence (based on cost of spares) well before their main component design life is achieved.

So, for example, all of the "carbon" investment in the metal quality and the additional weight and safety components has to be written off because a few bits of electronics, designed to reduce "carbon emissions" allegedly, become obsolete or expensive much earlier in their shorter life cycle.

How wasteful can "clever" become?

But I think I am digressing from the central concept of Mike's original question.

At the risk of drifting off into "Glorious Failures (Commercial)", how about the Maybach of recent times?

I might also offer the Fisker that was around, briefly in a few well healed locations, a few years ago. But that was probably more a commercial problem then too clever engineering.