How many years does Champcar have left?

[agosling]

Based on the Paul Tracy thread it seems that I am not alone is seeing Champcar as a dead series.

No name drivers, little public support, poor media coverage, no banner event, the list goes on of things the series doesn't have.

My question is, how many more years do people see it struggling on for, and is there a way it can be rescued.

[Craig]

For as long as someone is prepared to bankroll it.

The best opportunity for open wheel racing to bounce back in the US is for one or the other series to shut up shop. They're too proud/too stupid to merge. Judging on the current state of play then this has to be Champcar, surely?

Of course the question remains - is this too late. The answer, probably.

[cptkablamo]

million? two million years perhaps...
If it did stick round that long there will always be the threats and thoughts that they might go under or merge (same with IRL too)

It will be around for as long as KK and the gang want to run it and TG and the gang want to run IRL (and then someone else might buy either one and run it longer). With how much these guys are worth, I don't think a few million playing round with motor cars will affect them - its about the effort...

And sure, it can be rescued, it may require a change in mindset but who would have thought apple's revival would have been possible a few years back? (its a stretch I know, but work with me here)

[rush1]

The IRL is in much better shape than Champ car, the Penske, Ganassi and Andretties are the best funded, highest budget teams between the two series. THe IRL has Helio Castroneves and Danica Patrick - two well known drivers in North America, champ car is of course all no names. Champ car is now a hobby sport for very rich men.

The IRL has revenue streams such as television (ABC contract) ethanol sponsorship and the Indianapois and BrickYard 400. They have clearly come out on top in the pointless civil war.

The hobby sport champ car will last as long as these men want to indulge their expensive hobby, either way its a mear blip on the radar screen.

[BootsOntheSide]

ChampCar has very good cars and very good drivers, but without recognition and backing this means very little to the wider world. The IRL has solidly been ahead for several years, and now that they're putting on good road/street races, the purpose of ChampCar has dropped a little further. But, there are some very rich people behind it, so it pretty much depends how long they remain committed.

[Tony Clifton]

I agree with the consensus here CCWS will go on for as long as the rich guys want to do it.

How long they will do it? My guess is about 1 season more.

Unless a miracle happens with sponsor growth the fields will get smaller to the point where owners will need to fund multicar teams just to keep contractual obligations to the event promoters fulfilled.
THAT will be the breaking point in my opinion.
The 2008 economy is not going to be a good one, recession is on the horizon, the US dollar is weak (which is good for CCWS).

The IRL is in not much better shape although that series still has the largest audience event as it's trump card. IRL does not have any new up and coming drivers, they cannot make a career out of open wheel cars. NASCAR still has the big sponsors

The split has killed open wheel racing that will probably never be rebuilt.

Sad days indeed for open wheel race fans.

[indycool]

I do not believe in the term "open wheel racing" when discussing this. "Open wheel racing" includes sprint cars, misgets, supermods, some drag racing cars and some SCCA formulae. "OWR" is a term used by CC supporters to give relevance in the split.

Indy car racing has an identity, running the Indianapolis 500, the world's oldest and most prestigious race. CC can MAKE an identity but it started out as "festivals of speed" and San Jose and Las Vegas have turned that into an international and road racing focus, which has its own obstacles in competition from F1, A1GP, GP2 and lesser formulae all over the world.

Time will tell.

[Tony Clifton]

Out of all the "open wheel" racing we could discuss, it is my impression that only drag racing could be considered to have positive growth in the "commercial" aspects of the sport.
Pick up a copy of National Speed Sport News and see what they complain about............dirt tracks where other "open wheel" cars run are closing up, costs are driving competitors out. Even sprint car racing is having it's own problems. It was 3 or 4 years ago world of outlaws almost had a split in that series, to be headed by Richard Petty, remember that one.
US Indycar style racing is dying a huge component of that has been the split.

A1GP and even the "Past Masters" racing series are dead or dying as a series.

Time is dealing a long slow kill to US Indy style racing, all from it's own hand at that.

[indycool]

And yet, fans go to more than 800 short ovals in the U.S. on Saturday nights to watch sprints, midgets, supermods, stock cars, fender benders and the like. Tony Stewart just bought Eldora and added a charity race for stock cars there with some of his NASCAR brethren. The Knoxville Nationals are fine. Since the Indy cars are no longer at Phoenix, Manzanita is drawing better. The Richard Petty thing was a money deal that didn't work out. The Outlaws are still running and USAC sanctioned 18 different series this year.

[Craig]

When was the last time someone came from the short ovals to become a success in open wheel racing/single seaters/indy racing/whatever you choose to call it? Not that the latest fad in Nascar to take big name international formula drivers is gonna help either, of course, but the point is that short ovals have little, if nothing, to do with the health of Champcar.

[Tony Clifton]

Out of all the series you mentioned how many of those series are truly growing?
Manzanita may be drawing "better" but it is still trading water when it comes to overall growth.
If a open wheel guy does start to be noticed where are they shooting for?

NASCAR.

The Tony Stewarts and Jeff Gordons of the junior leagues are not attempting to race in either the IRL or CCWS.
Why?
There is no money left in those series. Either one.

The "higher echelon" Indycar style racing in the USA is a dying sport. CCWS being the weaker of the 2.
In a few years once CCWS folds it's tent up the IRL is not going to experience some sort of huge growth phase.
The death of Indy style open wheel racing is a sad one, the racing and track side "event" was truly some great times, all long gone, not to be repeated.

[indycool]

As things are cyclical, there will be a better opportunity for growth if/when there is just one series. As for the last driver to come from the short tracks to Indy, Al Unser Jr. comes to mind.

[Craig]

hmm... I was thinking more of the era of Tony Stewart and the like. But then look which direction he headed off in. Another example of Nascar attracting the fans, the sponsors and the drivers. And, without those three, no series is worth a dime.

I don't think it's a case of if we lose a series. It's a case of when. And will we even be left with one from which to start the regeneration...

[MCWB]

Originally Posted by Tony Clifton

A1GP and even the "Past Masters" racing series are dead or dying as a series.

I absolutely agree with the rest of your post, and this is a bit off-topic, but have you seen A1GP lately? It's going from strength to strength, no way in hell it is dying.

[Tony Clifton]

Article last year in the Wall Street Journal was about how the A1GP series is financially dying.

Maybe the series has changed for the better.

It would be good to see a series grow rather than die.

[Knowlesy]

I think Champcar has a fair few years left, but in what form I am worried. I fear it will be a few years of painful, painful viewing before the eventual death. It seems that whenever something positive happens, four or five bad things happen and it goes backwards.

Champcar won't disappear for a while yet, but it will move yet further from its best days. I see no reason for optimism anywhere, which is sad to say.

[fazzaz]

I think Champ Car will never see 2009 unless several things happen:

1. Committed ownership. KK seems to retain his interest; we'll see if the civil trial has changed him or his finances in any way. It's hard to understand the level of GF's interest, as he hasn't been to a race in most of 2007, and the possible split with Tracy seems real enough. Does he only wish to retain (and fund) a one car team, not the whole series? We don't know. PG? He's not going to fund a series. And everything we can see says that the series requires a great deal of financial propping up -- the total package is nowhere near making a profit.

2. A strategic, long-range plan, Is this an American road racing series, American festivals with a little racing tossed in, F1 lite, a competitor to A1GP, a competitor to the new world series planned for late 2008 (also using chassis built by Panoz). About all we know is that the Pacific Rim Strategy is dead.

3. After 2, a stable schedule, both for tracks and dates.

4. A well-thought out TV plan, aimed at increasing interest in the series. The present production is aimed at those who are already committed fans. There are producers and directors who understand how to package a race so that is has an appeal (or at least is understandable) to the non-fan. This is necessary for sponsorship too. (See building up "stars" below.)

Without 1 and 2 there will be little or no real sponsorship, not that there's any of consequence now. KK may be wlling and able to underwrite the expenses of the series itself, but teams have to be run as businesses -- it's obvious that there aren't enough "sportsmen" willing to fund teams for no return. These teams have substantial expenses for cars, parts, transportation, crew, buildings, insurance, taxes, etc.

If this is going to be a North America series, you have to build up some names people outside the small circle of hard-core fans will recognize. (NASCAR understood this model better than anyone.) The IRL's masterstroke of 2007 was Helio willing "Dancing with the Stars" -- that got the Indy 500 and IRL exposure to millions of people who knew nothing about it. Few will go to a race, even fewer will become real fans, but it will slightly increase TV viewers. Every little bit and all that.

There's more, of course, and I wish I had time to sketch out thoughts on a plan for survival. I just hope the series owners and Steve Johnson have that time and interest.

(Or, as I believe John SSC once suggested, a new motto: "CCWS: Drivers whose checks cleared, at Tracks whose checks did the same.")

Sad.

Fz.

[fazzaz]

(Memo to self: Don't ever try to write coherently until after the first cup of coffee....)

"The IRL's masterstroke of 2007 was Helio winning "Dancing with the Stars"



.

[rush1]

Originally Posted by Tony Clifton

I agree with the consensus here CCWS will go on for as long as the rich guys want to do it.

How long they will do it? My guess is about 1 season more.

Unless a miracle happens with sponsor growth the fields will get smaller to the point where owners will need to fund multicar teams just to keep contractual obligations to the event promoters fulfilled.
THAT will be the breaking point in my opinion.
The 2008 economy is not going to be a good one, recession is on the horizon, the US dollar is weak (which is good for CCWS).

The IRL is in not much better shape although that series still has the largest audience event as it's trump card. IRL does not have any new up and coming drivers, they cannot make a career out of open wheel cars. NASCAR still has the big sponsors

The split has killed open wheel racing that will probably never be rebuilt.

Sad days indeed for open wheel race fans.

Sadly its all true, but I am an optimist.

In the late 1970's the NBA (National Basketball Association) in the US was near death. This was just after the conclusion of their devastating civil war with the ABA (American Basketball Association). Both leagues tried to kill one another by going after the stars and citites with basketball teams. The NBA won but was severly diminished, but the league was saved by Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. The NBA of the late 1970's and the IRL today have much in common.

If we can get one unified league the process can start and I don't care who runs the show. Indy car racing is so exciting that it can make a comeback with some popular drivers, and drivers with a financial incentive to stay in the league.

Sadly, like the NBA and ABA, its not possible with two competing leagues.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by fazzaz

"The IRL's masterstroke of 2007 was Helio winning "Dancing with the Stars"

It will be interesting to see what impact, if any this has on the respective series in 08

[mountainstar]

I think it's silly to say "we've got Helio, we're stronger". It's going to take more than any one driver to dynamically change the course of what is happening.

With some behind the scenes movement of some of the players, I think 2008 will be interesting off track more than on. For both series.

[luke]

Originally Posted by rush1

The IRL is in much better shape than Champ car, the Penske, Ganassi and Andretties are the best funded, highest budget teams between the two series. THe IRL has Helio Castroneves and Danica Patrick - two well known drivers in North America, champ car is of course all no names. Champ car is now a hobby sport for very rich men.

The IRL has revenue streams such as television (ABC contract) ethanol sponsorship and the Indianapois and BrickYard 400. They have clearly come out on top in the pointless civil war.

The hobby sport champ car will last as long as these men want to indulge their expensive hobby, either way its a mear blip on the radar screen.

The IRL, the IRL, the IRL is so fantastic. This is about CC this thread.

[JohnSSC]

What fazzaz said...

Note that he said that Helio winning would be a "slight" increase in viewership, although I see that one of y'all has already created a quote out of nothing: fazzaz is not even implying that "weve got Helio, were stronger." Increased interest, however you get it can be a plus if you use it properly. It is not a "gimme" or a "slam-dunk." Taken in context, good PR is a building block, but it must be used effectively. If TG and company can get a little mileage out of that, it is on the plus side of the ledger.

As far as "This is about CC this thread." (Sister Mildred would have had a real go at some of the denizens here with her red pen...):

The thread is titled: "How many years does champcar have left?" One of the factors in that is going to be the impact of the IRL. Whether it is better or worse, grows or declines will be the topic of threads in the IRL forum. The impact of those outcomes will have an effect on what happens with CC. When you have a series that depends on the largesse of well-heeled hobby-racers, too many negatives can reach a critical mass where there is no value to continuing to write checks.

Those factors, along with the ability of CC to design and implement a plan along the lines of what fazzaz (and others) have suggested, will be what determines how long this series is around.

[indycool]

Agree with John SSC....or at least CC seems to think so. CC has trouble getting viable races at U.S. race tracks so it goes to streets, has the same problem there and goes international. Guess if that becomes a problem, they try to run on Mars.

[JohnSSC]

Mars, Pennsylvania, or the planet Mars??

Either way, they are not part of the Pacific Rim Motorock Street Festival European Cup populated by drivers with surgically attached ATM machines...