Flag point - What flag point?

[JimW]

On a trackday thread (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64301) ther is a very interesting in-car video of a couple of laps of Donington. Have a look and see how many flag points you can see. Particularly if you keep your attention on the car in front, as a racing driver probably woudl be doing, I reckon you see very few.

(At the end they come across a course car and I don't think the red lights were visible before then.)

Regards

Jim

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by JimW

On a trackday thread (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64301) ther is a very interesting in-car video of a couple of laps of Donington. Have a look and see how many flag points you can see. Particularly if you keep your attention on the car in front, as a racing driver probably woudl be doing, I reckon you see very few.

(At the end they come across a course car and I don't think the red lights were visible before then.)

Regards

Jim

That's why I have always stressed to flaggies on post with me that when you show a flag - whether static or waved - you need to make it "Talk" ie do something to make it catch the drivers eye!

[Tim Falce]

In a race situation it isn't quite as bad as that vid looks, most drivers have a better peripheral vision than the film shows. Don't forget you are all dressed in pretty orange stuff and as long as you make sure the flags are shewn positively then they should be seen. But on second thoughts it could be used in any future defence.

[Clive]

Seeing flag points is harder when you're focussing on the track and other racing cars, as I proved to myself when on the track day at Brands, and we weren't racing, of course! But, every driver knows where the flag points are, that's the point of showing the green on the warm up lap and practice sessions and the posts are painted to stand out, but it is true too that the flaggies need to 'present' properly to make sure the flag is as visible as can be as it more often than not through the peripheral vision that the driver 'sees' the flag. If not, maybe the position of the flag point needs changing!
Also, does every flaggie wear orange?? I think not.

[theracegypsy]

BRSCC did an experiment at Cmbe some years ago to use as a training aid for flaggers.
Very revealing, certain points where "invisible" to the driver.

I feel such a video should form part of the track licence as well as being used for training.

[JLD]

Having driven on a few trackdays at different circuits, I have yet to see the muber of people on a post anywhere near the number that you would get at a meeting. As has been said already, a number of people in bright orange helps to catch the drivers eye. Still a very interesting video though.

[Clive]

interesting video?? I suppose so, although it made me want to have a go!

[PipSqueak111]

I was on a trackday at Donington last year and they said there were several flag marshals out on post, but I could only spot one of them on my orientation laps, and didn't see any for the rest of the day (we were all good little boys and girls in our SEATCupra.net session and didn't need any flags - unlike marshals at Brands ). It does highlight the need for visibility of flagposts and flaggies alike. Being a marshal I was looking for the flags intentionally, but most drivers would be concentrating on the track and have even less chance of seeing them.
Didn't have a problem seeing flag marshals at Brands, so perhaps Donington need to look at this?

Phill

[tubthumped]

You like my little video then...

[Woolley]

Good fun, especially the Porsche.

Regarding not being able to see the flag points from the track at Donington, it's sometimes a little hard to see the track from the flag points without good binoculars.

[neil_davidson2]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

BRSCC did an experiment at Combe some years ago to use as a training aid for flaggers.

I'm guessing this is what also led to each of the posts at Combe having a diagram of the section of the circuit you were covering with the "Effective Flag Zone" clearly marked on it. Very useful for helping to get your eye in, especially if it was the first time you'd flagged that point.

[deebrief]

Like Clive I did the excellent Brands marshals trackday. During the morning sessions the track was a tad greasy so the speeds were down. At this point it was fairly easy to see the flagging, but after lunch the track was dry and people were more confident and it all speeded up. Needless to say ones concentration had to increase and cars were getting a little closer and braking later and later.
In conclusion, it became a little harder to see some of the flags !!!
However,you licenced drivers, please do not use this against me when I am observing and you lot do a naughty and overtake under yellows !!!

[Phoenix1]

Would large lights be a help? If you put them on the posts or where a driver looks and they where pretected they could be switched on/off from the control room? Failing that as UK marshalls are always good just get them to switch them on. Prob might be colour blind probs? Maybe different shape lights? Just a quick thought.

[Dutch chap]

Originally Posted by neil_davidson2

I'm guessing this is what also led to each of the posts at Combe having a diagram of the section of the circuit you were covering with the "Effective Flag Zone" clearly marked on it. Very useful for helping to get your eye in, especially if it was the first time you'd flagged that point.

~

Can you please clarify what you mean by this? I'm VERY interested. Allways happy to learn!

[neil_davidson2]

Yes no problem. The effective flagging zone shows the area on the track that your flag will be visible to an approaching driver. So at the start of the day you can match the diagram to the real view and have a good idea at which point on the track the drivers will see your flags and at which point you are not longer visible to them (and at some posts it's a surprisingly short distance).

It's very useful for trainee flaggers and as I mentioned for the first time you have to flag a post. I hope that helps clarify what I was talking about.

[Dutch chap]

Neil,

Just sent you a PM.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by neil_davidson2

Yes no problem. The effective flagging zone shows the area on the track that your flag will be visible to an approaching driver. So at the start of the day you can match the diagram to the real view and have a good idea at which point on the track the drivers will see your flags and at which point you are not longer visible to them (and at some posts it's a surprisingly short distance).

This sounds a great idea. I know that plenty of marshals will try to walk the corner before flagging it for the first time, and try and figure this out for yourself. However, if it's a rush to get out to post on time, then you might not have chance to do this; and in addition you also may not know the racing line if it's a new corner to you, so you've no idea where the car is meant to be!
Do any other circuits have a similar system that people know of?

[MikeM]

A few years ago at Oulton Park, Ian Walker used to give a talk at training days highlighting this effective flagging zone principal and then relate it to specific Oulton corners. It was very useful to new flag marshals.

Also, a number of drivers have videos of their races at Oulton. I guess some of them would be happy to lend/copy for training. I'm sure the same applies at all other circuits?

[Gordon Knight]

At Oulton Park, myself and another colleague have for some time operated a system of taking new flag marshals on a walk around the circuit during the morning practice sessions. We spend time at each post in turn ,looking at the post specifically from a
flag perspective, discussing drivers lines of sight, point of no return after which blue
flag would be too late, other issues such as cars joining from pit lane, rescue vehicles
joining etc etc. At the end of the walk notes are provided to the new flaggy as an
aide memoire. After lunch the new flaggies would then proceed to a post where they
would be under the guidance of an experienced flag mentor.
The feed back from trainees has been very good and they all agree that they find their
first time on post as a flag marshal much less traumatic as a result of this induction.

[The Fat Clerk]

Variation on this theme for Mallory, @ Post 10 (The Hairy Pin), I always check that the flag Marshals have been there before, because if they haven't, they more than likely to hit the driver on the helmet, when they wave their flags!

[MikeM]

Hello Gordon, you're right - the flag training at Oulton is good, and well thought about. I was just commenting on Ian's related ideas.

[Flagman]

Wow - someone who managed to stay awake during one of those flag training sessions

The idea was not so much to give trainees hard and fast rules about the 'window of opportunity' for each flag point, though that was a useful side effect, but to try to get them to think about what the driver sees and when and then translate that into when they need to display the flags to be effective.

Most drivers do not have enough time to look in their mirrors to see what the flag signal was!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Flagman

Wow - someone who managed to stay awake during one of those flag training sessions

Damn, where's that photo when I need it!