The HTP (Moved from FIA Historics Thread)

[James Murray]

I hope this as good a post to raise this as any other. Just wondering whether it is possible to create a Lotus Cortina FIA spec car out of a non Lotus Cortina and obtain the FIA paperwork to compete in FIA races as a Lotus Cortina, or does it have to be a LC to begin with. Just seems to me that there are so many Lotus Cortinas out there that some of them must have been created from non LC cars.

Is it evident from the chassis plate that its a LC or are there any defining features which identify a Lotus Cortina shell.

[Peter Mallett]

[OTopic]This has been covered elsewhere but in brief the FIA has adopted a "relaxed" approach to the history of cars and now you can obtain a Historic Technical Passport for a replica. The car has to be built from the same components as the original but the shell or chassis can come from a car of similar shape. I.E. you can use a 1600 Capri shell and build a 3.0s, or a 1200 cc two door cortina shell and build a Lotus cortina. However engines and gearboxes plus other components must be those homologated for the model.

Some people have a problem with this but as in your case if you had to obtain an aoriginal you wouldn't be out on the track so it makes sense.[/OTopic]

[James Murray]

I understand the position with the new FIA technical passport and don't agree with it. Under the old system would the car have had to be a Lotus Cortina prior to conversion into race spec, and if so would a LC have defining features, such as a unique chassis number or a unique shell clearly identifying it as an LC.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes and if you were to pass the replica off as a genuine car then you'd have to have the chassis numbers etc. FWIW I own a car that is a genuine pre 65 car and has the plates to show for it. I've been offered much money to sell it just for the numbers so if I were you I wouldn't get too upset because at least now there is less likelihood of the numbers game happening.

There is still nothing to stop anyone locating and building a genuine car and indeed people still do. All that's happened is the opportunity is now available to those with smaller pockets.

Personally I think its a good thing.

[James Murray]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes and if you were to pass the replica off as a genuine car then you'd have to have the chassis numbers etc.

Presumably this happened frequently under the old system then, and one would have to careful that the car may not be what it says on the papers (as always).

This brings me back to whether there are any defining features on a Lotus Cortina which clearly make it out to be an LC, such as a unique shell. Clearly any car under the old regime will have a Lotus chassis number whether it is or isn't a genuine car as it would need it to get the paperwork but is there any other key feature identifying it as an LC on the shell?

[jonners]

Yes - there are a number of features that are different on a genuine Lotus Cortina shell.

These can be replicated quite easily if you know what they are - but nowadays the Lotus Cortina Register will not broadcast to all and sundry what these unique characteristics are for obvious reasons.

To someone who really knows his/her stuff you can usually determine very very quickly whether the shell is genuine or not - replicating Lotus Cortinas started way before the cars became popular again for racing.

Come to think of it there are probably loads (I'm not joking) of Lotus Cortinas that are racing today that are considered to be genuine cars but are actually repicas without the owner realising...

Given that even a genuine racing Lotus Cortina (as opposed to the road car) in its day would have been reshelled in the event of a crash into a 1200 2 door shell I can't see what the problem is for racing

The problems occur when we start talking about value...that's when it gets hairy because provenance is worth something and people don't like getting ripped off - but against that some people can't accept that market value is only what somebody is prepared to pay

If a bitsa/replica is faster than a genuine car it may be worth more to some people

Others car about history and not a lot else.

If you want guidance on what is required to replicate a Lotus Cortina properly send me a private mail and I'll put you in touch with the right people but don't be surprised if they treat you 'at arm's length' to start with...

The most obvious howler is lhd pre airflow cars - they only ever made lhd airflow cars....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Presumably this happened frequently under the old system then, and one would have to careful that the car may not be what it says on the papers (as always).

This brings me back to whether there are any defining features on a Lotus Cortina which clearly make it out to be an LC, such as a unique shell. Clearly any car under the old regime will have a Lotus chassis number whether it is or isn't a genuine car as it would need it to get the paperwork but is there any other key feature identifying it as an LC on the shell?

jonners' post really sums it up but I'd like to take you up on your post about previous "regime".

Its not a perfect world and when it comes to cash its less than.............. anyway.

You seem to have a bit of a mission here and I will respect that but please be aware that not all of us are intent on fooling peeps about our cars. Keep an open mind about it and as jonners says ask the right people.

For me, I painted my replica in a certain colur scheme because I always liked the guys that drove the car in its most famous victory.

Its a tribute not an original.

[simon drabble]

I think its safe to assume most racing Lotus Cortina's have been reshelled at some point and to be honest I would be pretty nervous of racing a shell that has 40 years of racing as it will be very tired by now and the strength of the shell compromised.
You touch on values and unless the car has a period history of note (ie "ex Jim Clark") value is based more on state of prep. With the increasing number of quality endurance races available (U2TC, Top Hat and FIA etc) values are on the up. However they are still running £10-20k behind GTA's but seemingly in front on the track ;-)

[jonners]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think its safe to assume most racing Lotus Cortina's have been reshelled at some point and to be honest I would be pretty nervous of racing a shell that has 40 years of racing as it will be very tired by now and the strength of the shell compromised.
You touch on values and unless the car has a period history of note (ie "ex Jim Clark") value is based more on state of prep. With the increasing number of quality endurance races available (U2TC, Top Hat and FIA etc) values are on the up. However they are still running £10-20k behind GTA's but seemingly in front on the track ;-)

Yes, that's true but some people HAVE taken the trouble to ensure that they reshell using a genuine Lotus shell - the question is whether it adds value (especially since the value you gain or preserve has to be offset against the cost of a genuine car...). A 40 year old shell that's just been used for racing might even be stronger than a road car....

...infact perhaps the point here is that the integrity of the shell is what matters and where the value is - even if the woodman's axe still has the same head and handle after 40 years it might not be any good for chopping down trees...

...and speaking of integrity as recent events show even a Jim Clark history doesn't guaratee that there won't be mutterings about whether a shell's genuine or not...

I don't think there are any issues here other than that people aren't being deceived

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by jonners

I don't think there are any issues here other than that people aren't being deceived

Good point, well made.

[James Murray]

Peter I think your missing my point. My experience with FIA papers and Historic single seaters prompted me to raise this issue about saloons because clearly there is more scope to fiddle the provenence of a saloon car in order to create something it never was, which I personally think is a travesty, but unfortunately appears to occur.

IMHO a genuine car car painted in the colours of a particular car/team is more than acceptable provided the owner doesn't proclaim it to be "the" car. eg. genuine Lotus Cortina's painted in Alan Mann Racing colours appear in races but I guess the owners don't claim them to be original AMR cars unless they actually are.

What I think is unacceptable and I'm personally opposed too is building a car from an inferior model/type and passing it off as a genuine superior model/type, ie. Mk1 Mini 1000 built into 1275 Cooper S or Cortina GT into Lotus Cortina. This is what I was trying to avoid.

[simon drabble]

I am not sure if I want to be drawn into an argument asto the authenticity of the Jim Clark car
I find it hard to understand how a shell that has been racing for 40 years can be tougher than a sedately driven road shell but what do I know!
As an owner I would say that the value is a combination of the state of prep and therefore competitiveness and the extrinsic market value of the cars - which seems to be running as I said above between 10-20k behind GTA's.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Peter I think your missing my point. My experience with FIA papers and Historic single seaters prompted me to raise this issue about saloons because clearly there is more scope to fiddle the provenence of a saloon car in order to create something it never was, which I personally think is a travesty, but unfortunately appears to occur.

IMHO a genuine car car painted in the colours of a particular car/team is more than acceptable provided the owner doesn't proclaim it to be "the" car. eg. genuine Lotus Cortina's painted in Alan Mann Racing colours appear in races but I guess the owners don't claim them to be original AMR cars unless they actually are.

Quite right, more fidlde scope therefore be careful.

Originally Posted by James Murray

What I think is unacceptable and I'm personally opposed too is building a car from an inferior model/type and passing it off as a genuine superior model/type, ie. Mk1 Mini 1000 built into 1275 Cooper S or Cortina GT into Lotus Cortina. This is what I was trying to avoid.

And that was my point.

Get out there and look around. There are loads of us racing genuine replicas and we'll admit to it. However buy one and you'll find they are more genuine than the "originals".

[jonners]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I find it hard to understand how a shell that has been racing for 40 years can be tougher than a sedately driven road shell but what do I know!

All I was getting at is the rust issue...and the fact that repairs on a racer are usually well executed whereas lots of the road cars have been very very badly molested...

[zefarelly]

you can say that again, a majority of race cars are built from a shell up, whether that be a 1200 shell prepped as a lotus, a GT shell or a Lotus shell, if you know what your doing and have the ability/knowledge theres no real difference at the end of the day, I'm not sure there are many genuine Lotus prepred shells racing anymore, theyre either in museums or have been reshelled, makes no odds to me personally, as SImon says, if the cars well restored, maintained and prepared it makes no difference.

Value is another issue entirely. Incidentally, the New HTP does not show the chassis No plate photo on it, but the FiA keep a copy on their file with the papers, so if you build a car and try palming it off for a profit as something it isn't. you'll still get rumbled if the buyer does his homework.

[simon drabble]

oh ok well I was assuming that any shell is solid and prepping would involve taking back to bare metal if for no other reason than to get weight down to a minimum - I meant that a racing shell has a lot of stress on it which weakens the metal.

[zefarelly]

your right Simon, a well raced shell will suffer from stresses which could wekaen it, and steel, whilst having an alement of flexibility will fail eventually, so you would arguable be better of with Nellies old shopper rather than Baz's racer thats been caned on 8" slicks for 20 years ! this is particularly true for cars raced in the 70's and 80's on tyres and set ups they where never designed to handle. the MK1 was designed to a weight and stressed accordingly by aerospace engineers, so for the time it was a light well performing car, but it does havve its limits !

proper repairs make a huge difference to maintaining the integrity of the shell as well, which is why I always look for an unmlested car as a start, and thats hard even for GT's and standard cars, although I have a few

I don't honestly believe theres a genuine unmolested Lotus left anywhere.

[simon drabble]

and given Zef's position within the Cortina fraternity I think that is a point worth taking on board...

[jonners]

Thankfully, there are quite a few genuine unmolested Mk 1 Lotus Cortinas out there but they are completely outside racing circles so you guys may not be 'in the loop'

The non-motorsport Lotus Cortina owners have a very different mentality and are more in to concours and the like altho a number of them were at Castle Combe on Monday to watch the Top Hat race

Perhaps the best car left is the Great Train Robbery car that was seized by the Police with about 16k miles on it and then bought by Chapman for his collection when the government auctioned it off - it's now in private hands and regarded as the definitive 'template'

There are plenty of others but they and their whereabouts are very jealously guarded...

[James Murray]

Just to clarify therefore, the majority of the Lotus Cortinas FIA spec cars are now running non LC shells as most of the cars have been reshelled due to wear and tear but they still however have their LC identity carried on to the new shell and this is deemed acceptable by the FIA and competitors.

In light of the above provided a car has FIA papers as an LC it will be accepted and the main concern is the standard of preparation and its track pedigree?

[simon drabble]

yes James I think that is a fair summary. It is not the same as sports racers and single seaters where cars are either pukka or fakes...
As I have said earlier the cars in period where often put back on the road after racing so the number of cars with period racing are very few....
Jonners to answer you point - although I would like to think that the racing cars are not tatty they are not road cars, as such they are not concours. They are prepped to do a different job, weight is the enemy so shells should be as bare as possible!

[jonners]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Jonners to answer you point - although I would like to think that the racing cars are not tatty they are not road cars, as such they are not concours. They are prepped to do a different job, weight is the enemy so shells should be as bare as possible!

The point I was making (badly, obviously) is that Zef's suggestion that there are no unmolested Mk1 Lotus Cortinas left is incorrect as there are plenty out there but in non racing circles

Perhaps Zef's comment was just meant to relate to racers??

There was one genuine unmolested Mk 1 racer with absolutely unimpeachable provenance/history - the Alan Mann car in which John Whitmore won the '65 ETC - that car was a perfect time capsule and was owned by JW until he sold it to someone in the US - the originality of that car with all its period bits and AMR mods was astounding

Rumours abound that the US owner over restored it into a pebble beach type car with Nascar door numbers and so forth - if true it's a tragedy because to the true afficianado that car was very very special

There's also a rumour that Alan Mann has bought the car back - we all know he has bought back the Mk 2 CTC 24E but can anyone confirm he has the Mk 1 as well??

Sorry for hijacking - Lotus Cortinas float my boat I'm afraid....

[simon drabble]

as this is a racing forum Zef and I were only talking abt racing cars.
In respect to any period important race car I agree it would be a great shame if it has been "pebble beached"
our car is there to be used and therefore will pick up the odd war wound along the way!

[jonners]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

as this is a racing forum Zef and I were only talking abt racing cars

I see. Can anyone join in??

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by jonners

I see. Can anyone join in??

of course!!
however when posting in a racing forum it is probably best to clarify when referring to road cars!!