Comms upgrade time? ideas?

[Bodysnatcher]

A recent high profile meeting had comms problems (again)
I really really want it to get better and it seems I'm not alone.

While Race Control were dealing with a minor incident, a major one happened and the post couldn't get through to report it, by phone or radio, and when they did eventually get a message through and ask for the SC to be deployed, they were told 'we're thinking about it', when in actual fact the SC had already come out and was sat in front of me on the startline waiting for the leaders to come round, and it had done half a lap before radio users were told that it was out!

and

Yep, at post 18 mucho problems with radios first thing Sunday morning.

3 years on no change then..
No actually, now it's an MSVR run meeting with radio comms cobbled together from the BRSCC.

Comms at Brands, bad joke.

So, the point of a new thread

Have we any constructive ideas about how a race circuit communication system could be set up. Bear in mind that the requirements will vary from day to day and that it is not a "cost no object" exercise.

My (cheap) idea is that the fixed locations (ie marshal's posts) should be on landline loops (as per most North American circuits) and mobile users on radios

There are expensive (I think) proper 21st century options that could be a giant leap forward and be capable of generating revenue - do we have anyone on here with experience or real knowledge of such things. I only know of them from what has been mooted at my place of work.

PS - remember lots of people read this.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

My (cheap) idea is that the fixed locations (ie marshal's posts) should be on landline loops (as per most North American circuits) and mobile users on radios

The oval at Rockingham has such a system and it is simply the best comms I have used. The safety crews have radios (all with headsets)

For those who have not come across a land line system it is a headset/mic that plugs into a cable direct to race control and is operated by a small PTT box that clips to your belt.

Question; can existing marshals posts that have a normal phone link be adapted to landline without running out another cable?

[Piglet]

What problems did you have Bodysnatcher?

The incorrect information about the safety car is likely to be because the ladies that are taking the calls from posts are slightly remote from the clerk making the decision (if they are not nobody can hear what is being said) they are also plugged in taking constant calls and passing on information so wouldn't necessarily be entirely up to speed with what else is happening - it's not their role really, mainly they are communicating info to the clerks not the other way around.

[Bodysnatcher]

The information is out there (a summation of it's the second quote in the original post of this thread) and I have communicated it to DS directly.

I have no problems with ANYONE in race control before anyone starts making copies and maliciously handing excerpts around (again). It's not the messages, it's the way they are not clearly passed due to the medium of transmission.

My case from Sheene Curve beach this weekend when I had an FPA off. I passed my message, but due to the rest of the field going past, could not hear the response. I had not requested a snatch, but the only way I would have known if one was going to occur was by watching to see if the JCB was coming my way.

Safety car stuff, meh, as long as the previous post is doing it's thing, no problem. What we had at the weekend was a radio net for flags that worked intermittently at best. If people in (race) control thought it was improving things they were being misled much of the time.

I started this thread to improve things.
Were you at Brands at the weekend Piglet ? If so, were you in a role that was supposed to use radios as the primary information transfer system? and finally, if so, did it work every time?

Thank you Stack for your comments. I used that system at F1 events in Indy and Montreal. It's all positive as far as post based marshals are concerned.

[Jacko]

Land lines have one obvious problem and that is they can get damaged or broken. I was on 13a at the weekend. We had a landline which worked but further on 14,15 and I think beyond had no connection. We had a visit on Saturday lunchtime from a BT engineer looking for the fault. Lo and behold broken cable which he fixed. But, because the cable was lying on the ground not only was it a trip hazard but there was every chance that we could break it ourselves.

We need to bear in mind that a lot of circuits are in very rural locations and so a landline running just below the surface or indeed on the surface is prone to damage from the local wildlife, rabbits and rats in particular.

The most reliable system must surely be radio. However a full radio system is expensive and will not function properly without a fully staffed and competant control room.

So no easy answer and certainly cheap solutions will not give the answer that is required. You get what you pay for in this world.

[TFHarv]

Well whats wrong with VoIP and wireless network points? The base would need a one off purchase to buy and install and you would need a server to do the work but then its just a matter of having access point placed around the circuit with one cable running to each from switch boxes.

Then each post could have either a cheap lappy or just a VoIP phone and you would have a Local Area Network on your circuit which you could just use for voice comms or even have obs issue reports or even take pictures at incidents live.

You could also add webcams to report on track situations or point out incidents that need attention ( bit like cctv on each post )

The same network could als be used for teams and could even run the offices off it.

Just an idea with no real thought into which kit you could use stright off the top but it would definetly work and work well.

[banger_racer]

wireless network points would requier line of site with the router to work not practical around any race circuit as anything in the way trees,buildings,pork pie eating marshals would affect the signal. a VOIP over a wired conection would work fine..In your home wireless is fine coz most peoples wallsare paper thin if you have thick brick walls internally wireless struggles.

[banger_racer]

please ignore above misread msg.

[Bodysnatcher]

TFHarv, that's roughly the lines of thought I was having. VoIP as the basic level. Access points installed at the posts as and when required. Anything beyond a VoIP headset would be a bonus. Also, wireless public access would really move a motor racing circuit into the 21st century. For somewhere like Brands GP where a PA system is not allowed, how much more enjoyable it could be if you could see timing screens and see a live feed. I guess that becomes more like the Kangaroo system that will be more widely available at Le Mans/F1 this year.

But it requires investment way above that required to maintain the 1950s telephone system which I believe was originally installed on the short circuit with the help of the marshals.

Jacko, I would be the first to agree that radio is proven technology and works well for people on the move. But time after time we find that for whatever reason a radio network just does not function reliably at GP circuit meetings.

The question there is why is that the case?

I think we've been a bit lucky at Brands so far.
Comunication issues were cited as a major cause of the Rockingham Fiesta problem. There was also a recommendation to provide an alternative should the radios fail.

More recent was the incident at Croft where Jo was injured & there seems to have been some communication related issue.

As far as I know there has been an MSA enquiry into the FF startline incidents last year at Brands where better coms may have averted what happened, but I've not seen a report in Motorsports Now!

[archaic gold]

I find all the above very interesting reading, but surely one of the root problems with Radios, is that they either supplied by BARC or BRSCC, or hired-in handsets. I hace advocated for a long while that there is a proper aerial fitted to the roof of Race Control. During the week a magnetic aerial (as on a mini-cab!) was placed on a steel pipe on the 1st Floor! No wonder comms: with the GP loop was difficult. My present organisation has a brilliant system. I can talk direct; vehicle to vehicle from as far away as West Malling to Gillingham, and Base Control is no problem, so why is a similiar sytem so difficult to install at Brands where; "as the crow flies" we only cover about 1 mile, albeit on handsets.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

Comunication issues were cited as a major cause of the Rockingham Fiesta problem. There was also a recommendation to provide an alternative should the radios fail.

I read that, struck me as odd given that most of us carry mobile phones and the assembly area at Rockingham is next to Race Admin which has a telephone link to Race Control. TBH you can do semaphore from the assembly area to Race Control and the Pit lane if you're pushed (and I have!)

Anyway back to the topic, what I'm asking Bodysnatcher is exactly what the problems were rather than just "it didn't work", you mention in your later post that you couldn't hear the response because of the car noise, was that about the headset, because the radio signal was poor or because there was no response to you?

[TFHarv]

The investment of wireles lan equipment can prove to be less than you think for commercially available stuff - also think sponsorship I bet a few businesses ( CISCO for one ) would jump at the chance to be involved.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Anyway back to the topic, what I'm asking Bodysnatcher is exactly what the problems were rather than just "it didn't work", you mention in your later post that you couldn't hear the response because of the car noise, was that about the headset, because the radio signal was poor or because there was no response to you?

Post 13 has to call in three times before race control acknowledged them when they had the big shunt. Then they got the response 'we've got you on camera'....

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

My (cheap) idea is that the fixed locations (ie marshal's posts) should be on landline loops (as per most North American circuits) and mobile users on radios

There are expensive (I think) proper 21st century options that could be a giant leap forward and be capable of generating revenue

I liked the idea that we came up with on post - a secure Bluetooth network. A smattering of BT base units together with BT head units.
I know the range is only about 100m so on the GP loop it would have to be a base unit per post...

Otherwise, how about each mobile unit (fire truck, rescue unit, manitou) have a radio repeater, or a decent aerial out in the woods....

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by TFHarv

Well whats wrong with VoIP and wireless network points?

It might work at smaller meetings but with the amount of RF at larger events it would be prone to interference. A track recently trialled a wireless set of traffic lights dotted around the circuit running on VHF during a recent test day but guess what, one of the teams running was using a similar frequency for telemetry which caused all sort of problems for the lights.

A properly set up "wired" loop that allows marshals to talk over each other if something big happens is the best option for observers but a basic radio network using a repeater so that everyone can hear what's going on as well as good quality noise cancelling headsets is the next best thing.

Radio etiquette is also important so you are not tying up the channel with crap during an on track session.

[Nighthawk]

I was observer on post 14 and had no land line or radio.
what was the point of me being there.
Post 13a was asked to keep an eye on us and report if needed.

[cornish git]

We had the same problem on post 6 unable to hear race control on the telephone due to the car noise,in hut with the door closed, if i open door and look out i can see race control, we can rec signals from the moon but unable to rec over 1 mile, there must be a way of improving the comunications, radio with head sets mean you can move about, but there must be a good base station.

[Startline Ed]

Going back to Bodysnatcher's original post and problem about being unable to contact Race Control by either phone or radio. Perhaps observers should be given a last resort card with the phone numbers for race control on it. If they cannot contact RC by any other means, a quick ring using a mobile might work. However, this assumes that the observer has a mobile and that there is coverage at the circuit/post.

As for upgrades, I would say ensuring the fixed point phone system is up to scratch and that RC can transmit/receive comms from each post via radio would be a good start. However as I am not a communications engineer I am not 100% on how this could be achieved for a minimum of cost and time.

[Woolley]

Having used the landline system at Rockingham, Brands and Surfer's Champ Car events, for me it's a no brainer. It works well and is simple to use. It can't be that expensive to install if CC put it in on a temporary basis at Brands, a little more if you do the job properly and permanently. Sure there is the risk of broken cable, but that's the same as for phone systems. It's probably a lot less problem than radios which suffer from all sorts of problems regularly - there's very few meetings I've been to where there wasn't some sort of interference problem or units needing to be changed. The biggest drawback of radio, though, is the one at a time restriction. Fine most of the time, but if someone's calling in a spun and continued while somewhere else is having a huge shunt, the priority caller can't get in.

There's plenty of equipment and expertise available for setting it up, so why go for something experimental until the technology is proven.

[garybirch]

I have passed my concerns to Dave Scott already, as he requested, and this is what i said:

I was on flag post 2, so actually saw quite a lot which helped me, but some of my friends were out on the long circuit and complained not only of poor radio reception, but also that even some of the phones didn’t work. For safety sake, surely there has to be an operating hard line contact to Race Control.



With the flag radios, we were told that it was for us to pass on information only during A1 activities, namely when we put out a yellow and took it in again.

We were also supposed to receive information from RC about any flags they wanted us to display, particularly during safety car periods.



The most serious of incidents came, I believe, when there was a pull-off being dealt with on post 21/22 when Pakistan and Australia had their big incident on 13. Obviously there was some problem with a hard line communication to RC from post 13 because the flaggie tried to make contact. Only after his fourth call through was it acknowledged and the urgency of his call was obvious, stating that he had his yellow flags out and that there was debris all over the track, even saying they suggested the safety car was needed. The response was a rather disappointing ‘we’ll think about it’. Now I understand the flag radio network was probably not the normal way to request the SC, but obviously the proper way wasn’t working either.

What was very interesting though, is that while these calls were happening, the SC had in fact already come out onto the main straight, right in front of us on post 2. However the start line had not put out their yellow flag and SC board yet either, so as I could clearly see it there on the track, I put mine out straight away and was very tempted to tell the radio network that he was on track in front of me already!

The SC picked up the leaders and it was along the bottom straight near post 8 before the radio network was told, ‘SC on circuit, yellows and boards please’.

I don’t know what communication there was in RC between people there but it seemed the radio network operator didn’t know what was going on.

Now I have done some days in RC at Castle Combe and know how hectic it can get, but this was a disaster!



For other support races we were told we could listen to the radios as they would try, if they could, to keep us updated with info.

To be honest, I think it needed to be a full working network for all races, as there were other SC problems in the support races.

At one point as the safety car was coming back in, the leaders crossed the line and got their green flag while back markers, still under SC conditions were going past post 9. I guess the green flags eventually caught up and overtook them in time, but that could have caused real problems if the leaders on Green had caught backmarkers still under SC. If we had had the radios working, a full course green could have been called, saving the problems.



Also at one point, I saw startline put out their SC board and yellow flag, so I followed with the same, checking that post 3 saw mine. When I looked back to startline, they had taken it in again! Once more, with better use of radio control, that wouldn’t be a problem.



I also think many people are still confused with the double waved yellow rules. Have they been changed now to include double waved yellows as an official signal? And what are the posts before supposed to be displaying? Waved or stationary yellow? Does that depend on FIA or MSA rules?

Some clarification would be good, but I guess that is a ‘higher up’ decision. However, if circuits are interpreting rules differently, it would have been good to be told what was expected beforehand.



Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not a complainer. I thoroughly enjoyed the weekend and there was much about it that was very very good.

I just think it could have been better if the communications were a bit better!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Piglet

what I'm asking Bodysnatcher is exactly what the problems were rather than just "it didn't work", you mention in your later post that you couldn't hear the response because of the car noise, was that about the headset, because the radio signal was poor or because there was no response to you?

Yep, lets not stray too far. "It did'nt work" is perhaps an oversimplification of the communications system. It's probably better to say "it falls short"

Specifically, as an Observer/Post Chief at Brands I do not have access to a radio. I have to use a telephone. Out at Sheene I had a basic shelter with a basic phone. I never had problems contacting race control, but a lot of the time I could not hear their response. I assumed that my message was clearly received and at the very least would alert somebody to check the camera. (Hmm that inceasing over reliance on cameras....)
My flag marshals had a radio - to be used as Gary says above. However I think it took 3 attempts on Sunday to get a workable combination of headset/unit. Even then, reception of control was patchy.

Nighthawk - yep, been there, done that, heard that response. (BTCC this year).

The points about interference on a wireless net are important. I was thinking about old cars and how they can interfere with radio. Likewise, radio traffic is not going to drop, so there will be more possible sources of interference out there. (Like there's always a minicab firm)

Maybe the wireless sytems are just too cutting edge for a circuit application. Anybody know more about this sort of thing? (MESH networks?)

Mini, the secure Bluetooth, it sounded good at the time, but will it add anything to the existing sytem, other than cost?

Seems like the consensus is favouring a loop for fixed points and improved radios for mobiles. We can only hope that MSVR think some investment is worth making.

Or am I just being one of those whinging troublemakers on that website that nobody reads?

[Stephen Green]

I think there are two major problems that have been outlined (again):

1. If you use a telephone to report to race control, it is very likely you will not be able to hear their reply to your question or request. The only real answer is for the observer to have a head set to block out background noise.
2. Radios are (for me) the answer to the problem. With many meetings being under manned you need to allow the observer the freedom to become an active part of the crew, going trackside if needed and not being tied to the 'office' by either a telephone or land line as in CART.

If both the above can be addressed then I believe many of the problems will disappear. We should remember though at large meetings such as A1GP, Race Control can be very busy and equally as noisey meaning the ladies on telephones don't always manage to get the Clerks immediate attention.

[racerkeke]

Any circuit with a telephone system can be converted to a landline system with very little trouble, according to the guys at Palmer Audio (the company that put the landlines into most of the temporary CART/Champ Car circuits, with great success). Essentially a landline is a big party line telephone system, with all parties having the ability to be live at all times. Yes, it "tethers" the communicator to a location. But so does a telephone.

Champ Car used a double-failsafe system, with landlines as primary. Each station had a backup radio as well, which was tested daily as a part of Race Control's morning start-up routine. If your landline went down, you could grab the radio and call in that way -- not only could Race Control hear you but so could all other users of the landline. I'm not sure how they did that, some kind of conversion to landline at the radio base station? But it's obviously possible.

I had to laugh at the posts from Piglet and Stephen that suggested that the women staffing the telephones were busy listening to them and were relatively far away from the Clerk in Race Control so might not know what all was going on elsewhere on the circuit, if I read them correctly. Last month I worked Race Control for the Long Beach GP. I had the same landline connection as the Clerk across the room. I was able to listen to stations, do the recorder log, talk directly (off landline) to the clerk, talk (again offline) to the emergency dispatchers and the track promoter rep, wave at visiting VIPs, etc. Yes, it was busy. But not overwhelmingly so. It only got REALLY busy when I was doing all of those things plus speaking directly to the stations as the voice of Race Control, which I was doing during the support races. And the nice thing about landlines is that although you can hear everyone, you can prioritize: "Please hold unless emergency Turn 7, Turn 11, Turn Rock Garden. Go ahead, Turn 5." All the while keeping an eye on the series stewards and writing madly. Still, it was great fun.

Just my two cents Canadian, and I realize it's worth only half as much as your two pence!
keke

[Rich D]

Not sure of the technology used, but we got a new digital land-line system at the Canadian GP last year. Absolute silence, until someone made a call.

Only drawback - none of the usual comforting hum, background noise that lets you know you are connected/the system is running/you have the volume turned up! Also, missed the click that pressing the PTT usually gave to let you know you had, and the sound of your own voice in your ears to let you know your mic was connected!! Also the PTT button doubled as the volume, so it was easy to turn down inadvetantly...but then, the old system had a locking PTT which led to many 'open' mic situations

Personally, having worked both - I prefer the land line over a radio system - primarily becasue it gives the ability to override another call - the magic word "emergency" and all goes quiet......

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

Any circuit with a telephone system can be converted to a landline system with very little trouble, according to the guys at Palmer Audio (the company that put the landlines into most of the temporary CART/Champ Car circuits, with great success). Essentially a landline is a big party line telephone system, with all parties having the ability to be live at all times. Yes, it "tethers" the communicator to a location. But so does a telephone.

Champ Car used a double-failsafe system, with landlines as primary. Each station had a backup radio as well, which was tested daily as a part of Race Control's morning start-up routine. If your landline went down, you could grab the radio and call in that way -- not only could Race Control hear you but so could all other users of the landline. I'm not sure how they did that, some kind of conversion to landline at the radio base station? But it's obviously possible.

I had to laugh at the posts from Piglet and Stephen that suggested that the women staffing the telephones were busy listening to them and were relatively far away from the Clerk in Race Control so might not know what all was going on elsewhere on the circuit, if I read them correctly. Last month I worked Race Control for the Long Beach GP. I had the same landline connection as the Clerk across the room. I was able to listen to stations, do the recorder log, talk directly (off landline) to the clerk, talk (again offline) to the emergency dispatchers and the track promoter rep, wave at visiting VIPs, etc. Yes, it was busy. But not overwhelmingly so. It only got REALLY busy when I was doing all of those things plus speaking directly to the stations as the voice of Race Control, which I was doing during the support races. And the nice thing about landlines is that although you can hear everyone, you can prioritize: "Please hold unless emergency Turn 7, Turn 11, Turn Rock Garden. Go ahead, Turn 5." All the while keeping an eye on the series stewards and writing madly. Still, it was great fun.

Just my two cents Canadian, and I realize it's worth only half as much as your two pence!
keke

We operate in a similar fashion over here too Keke...and our pesos are almost as worthless as well.

No criticism...but I too was puzzled at the ladies answering the telephones bit.....everyone in Race Control feeds off the information required to make snap decisions and if the info is not passed promptly then catastastrokes can occur.

As I understand it, the UK Flaggies are on Comms and should be the first indication of an incident (I suppose, unless they are too busy to make a call then I suppose the observer would be the first to report)...I gather that the Observers then insert their coins in the telephone, get on to an operator, ask for Race Control and then start reporting on what is unfolding

It might be better if the Flaggies and the OBS were both on the same loop (I favour fixed loops for their performance and the fact that they do offer a degree of privacy that radio cannot, however, being tethered is not ideal )