Way to improve F1. Power and Grip.

[Raglanparade]

I dont want the FIA to limit horsepower. I just want some of the grip taken away from the cars. I would love to see 900hp on a car with no wings and tires half the width.. now
thats racing !!

-jason

NOTE: This wasn't a start of a thread, but a reply to the air restrictors thread http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=49881 It was split to let this aspect get discussed sully without getting in the way of the original's thread's idea. Thanks

[JAG]

The philosophy of F1 is not to limit development.

Therefore when the F1 regs are radically changed in 2006 the FIA will introduce a 2.5 V6/V8 or such like. Power will come down to around the 700-750BHP mark.

Likewise downforce will be cut by upto 30%-40%.

The teams will then work there way back upto the performance of the current cars over a number of years.

[Startline1]

I don`t think [air restrictors] they would work for the reasons stated above.

So my idea is to make rules for steel brakes,slick tyres, and most importantly a flat bottom front to rear(no difussers) and so encourage more mechanical rather than aero grip.

Now some will say thats a step backwards,but if F1 continues to be so processional fans will depart in droves and then will follow sponsors who see no promotional value in the formula.

The old adage of "F1 being the cutting edge of development" is all very well, but it is in great danger of developing/pricing itself out of existance.

Sorry have gone off topic somewhat, so air restrictors nice ides in some ways but wont work.

NOTE: you haven't gone of topic, it is perfectly suited to this new split thread! Thanks.

[avsfan733]

If there were less restrictions, teams could develop in different ways and do so with less money because they didn't have to search for where to change an angle by half a degree or a thousandth of an inch with a hundred wind tunnel hours

[Adam43]

Originally posted by avsfan733
If there were less restrictions, teams could develop in different ways and do so with less money because they didn't have to search for where to change an angle by half a degree or a thousandth of an inch with a hundred wind tunnel hours

As anside an interesting point, which I sort of agree with. However some of the new areas will be expensive and very expensive to suddenly develop quickly when it becomes apparent that this is the new way to go.

Air restrictors? Hmm, I hope not. More power, not less please

Will it work? Well it might. However the manufacturers might look foolish when it is said that they can only get 600bhp from a 3l V10! Or whatever.

In some ways the new rules for long life engines is as much, if not more, an attempt to reduce costs as it is to reduce power. Has it (or will it) achieved a reduction is a debateable point too.

[Raglanparade]

i still think that if you halfed the width of the tires...
faster down the straights (less drag on the wheels).
slower in the corners (less grip).
What they should do is limit F1 tyres to the size of conventional road tyres. Less corner speed and more straight line speed means that more braking would occur...
and heaven forbid... more passing might actually happen..
then again... bernies getting old... any excitement could led to medical complications.

-jason

[Knowlesy]

Why don't we all just lobby to bring back turbos, slicks etc...... in fact, let's have the 1986 regulations!

[Adam43]

Would a return to those '70s big fat tyres help F1. Would the cars look better? What other changes need to be made in tandem with a change to the tyres? How would the tyre manufacturers like it?

This has been split from the air-restrictor thread http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=49881

[Gt_R]

FIA wants to slow the cars down significantly?

Leave the regulations as they are, allow just one engine and one set of all weather tyre (for quals AND race), revert to the old qualifying format and double the race distance.

In a bid to prolong engine life (hence less power) and tyre wear (hence less grip for harder compound), the cars would slow down.

All this while making the race-ticket more worth the money (we see the cars more)

i think i am sober..no?

[neilap]

I dont think any of the changes will make the racing more compeititve. The teams with the most experience and momey will still be the ones to dominate. To make the racing better we need tracks that encourage passing, and parity between cars. F1 will never introduce articicial parity and the tracks have to meet certain "standards". So IMO the best thing for F1 is if the manufacturers leave or if the ones that are not cutting it (Honda, Toyota, Ford) step up the game big time. Last year Michelins dominance made the racing seem better but it was actually the better tires that allowed Williams etc. to be more competitive. After the political rule change, Bridgestone suddenly seemed competitive again. Look at how fast BAR was compared to Renault, Toyota, and Jag. all because of tires.

Rule changes will spice things up for a year or so but in the end the better teams will still run away with the races and the tracks wont allow for too much wheel to wheel racing.

[Knowlesy]

Neilap points out that tracks don't allow for much racing......he's 100% correct I suppose. Whatever rule-changes there are, you can still only overtake so much due to the tracks.

But still, there is scope for more overtaking on current tracks.

[gttouring]

we need tracks that encourage passing,
yes and a marksman needs a bigger target to improve his shooting.
the cars and pilots are the trouble. Take away the wing- make them single element front and back, and harder compound non grooved tyres- one set for the weekend, one wet one dry, that's it and see what they can do with that. the engines leave as is just one per weekend.
i bet they'd run 850-900 hp and passing and sliding would be the way of the day

[Sodemo]

I wish the FIA actually woke up and realised what kind of state F1 is in (in terms of quality of racing).
What we need is the old slicks from the 80s back, and wide-track cars.
Then reduce the rear wing efficency by giving designers a maximum surface area to work with.

Also ban the wooden plank, and bring back the titanium skid plates.

[pirenzo]

it would be very dangerous....

What makes a car fly off the road? Not loads of power, but a sudden lack of grip

[RWC]

f1 needs nothing less than a complete trashing of all the current regulations.
Consign them to the history bin with max and bern

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by pirenzo
it would be very dangerous....

What makes a car fly off the road? Not loads of power, but a sudden lack of grip

Therefore, the less grip you have to begin with, the less chance you have of that situation occurring.



Incidentally, F1 doesn't need a big rules shake-up. If you do that it generally makes a bigger gap between the teams. Every year the rules stay the same, the gap narrows.

And for those who say the racing isn't like it was in the eighties - dig out the tapes. There wasn't that much overtaking then either.

[neilap]

There is not that much overtaking in openwheel racing period. Last year was the best F1 season I have ever wittnessed and it was not because of the racing but because each weekend we did not know what to expect. Any rule to bring more parity will only spread the field more. Toyota will definately be able to put more research into suspension development than Jordan if we take away the aero grip of the cars. So in the end the same teams will lead and the same will be backmarkers.

For close racing I watch motorbikes, gt and touring cars.

[avsfan733]

I thought last year was a gigantic step forward in competitivness (I have angered the spelling god) we had at least four teams really capable of winning and a real second tier. We need to allow more development because of the simple fact that its not some revolutionary idea that introduces new costs its the tweaking of it. look at present day aero. first we had the raised nose, absolutely revolutionary and makes a big difference. but that didn't really cost money. what cost money is the constant adjustments to it. How much do you think williams spent on the tusks? or any of the top teams spend on changing the radius on the tip by a tenth of an inch. Allow ideas to dominate, as the designers should get credit for their ideas, and then ban the idea when it gets expensive and put designers on other ideas and topics.

[GP Racer]

Whenever a topic like this comes up, I can't help and compare F1 to CART.

Champ Cars seem to have all the things that some here would like to see F1 have. They have few driver aids, they have to shift gears manually, they have fat slicks, a low and wide track, turbochargers, and only one competitive chassis, yet with all those differences, they are still very capable of producing the same parade-like races as F1 does. They seem to have the very same problem as F1 cars, in that they can't get close enough to the car in front to draft, or slingshot, there way past.

I can't even say its the tracks, because sports car racing on those same tracks, usually produce an action packed race with alot more passing. Parity is not the answer either, because CART pretty much has that, and the results aren't any better.

So I think the FIA can tweek the rules here and there to help alittle, but I'm afraid that what it is, is what it is...

[Snrub]

Watch a recent CART race from before the tough times of 2002 or 2003 and tell me that the even package made no difference and that the races were parades.

[Raglanparade]

Well the tracks are too blame. What used to be a 4th gear corner in early 80's is now a flat out 6th gear corner. Basically places like silverstone. The cars used to have to brake heavily to make it around Copse, and then brake again in Becketts, and then brake majorly for stowe. All these stops and starts promote passing. If a circuit like silverstone went back to its original layout with corners of a tighter raduis, then we would see so much passing it wouldnt be funny. Even places like Spa. Used to be able to pass in at least 4 places.. now the only real place to pass is into La Source. Im tempted to start a thread into what f1 circuits should look like.

-jason

[Raglanparade]

Well, i got bored. For a modern f1 car to pass they need long straights and tight corners. Silverstone used to offer this. Stowe required heavy braking in the 60's and 70's, as did copse and club. The raduis of these corners has barely changed since those days, ans f1 cars are going there those corners at twice the speed.
If you wanted a good race at silverstone. You would put some narrow all weather tyres on the cars. One element wings. and 900hp engines. There would be passing. Your assured.

-Jason

[Gt_R]

Ok...call me a spoil-sport..but just some thoughts regarding the many "suggestions" to improve racing we have here.

(1)Blame the tracks...Tilke sucks
>> One of the most disliked guys around is Tilke, for the tracks he design...but oddly, he designs tracks which has something common to what we think overtaking needs...Tracks need a long straight followed by heavy braking into a tight corner... and all his tracks had it.

(2)Bring back the slicks.
>> Bring back slicks to improve racing...BUT didn't many engineers/designers/drivers reckon that the current grooved tyres had already surpassed the grip levels of the slicks?

(3)Wide cars.
>> Pardon me, but for narrow tracks, doesn't wider cars actually pose as a greater obstacle?

(4)Rules
>> I don't know..but i actually think it is damaging for FIA to keep changing its rules and regulations. Not only it shows the authorities lack of abilities to regulate, it also showed that the original fundamental formula is flawed in the first place.... when's the last time soccer see a huge rule change?

(5)Banning pitstops.
>> But why? In the end, what we'd see is the faster cars qualify ahead, and run off with the race. At least with pitstops, some less powerful cars on lighter fuel actually can fight for position wit faster cars on heavy fuel load... and it does open up another area of uncertainty.

(6) Turbo
>> ??? For?

I'm all for racing, i'm all for improving F1, but some of the suggestions are merely asking F1 to change into another CART, or another F3000...and if that's so...what's the point?

[Smokey 6 litre]

bring back slicks on the front, and reduce the width and number of filiments for the from wing.

More dependance on mechanical grip + less on aerodynamic = more over taking!

[Try Hard]

I've thought about this subject for a long time, and am generally in agreement with most people here. My suggestions (with reasons) are as follows.
1) Wide track cars, with wider tyres. A number of benefits would come from this, with more drag created down the straights, and therefore more opportunity for slipstreaming to occur, as well as more mechanical grip in the turns, allowing cars to run closer to each other.
2) Dramatic Reduction in wing sizes. Doesn't matter which end (but preferably the front), as whatever end is changed the other would have to be reduced so to avoid any imbalance in the car. this would allow cars to (hopefully) follow closer during cornering.

Thoose are the two main points I think would benefit racing in F1.
Looking at some of the other posts, to be honest, I think the greatest problem with overtaking and the such, is the drivers themselves. They really aren't willing to "have a go" anymore, relying too much on pitstops etc. If you think Im wrong, just think back to Silverstone, which was by far the best grand prix in years. Why was it so good? Because most of the fast guys were caught out of position, and with no more stops left, had to get a move-on, and do some on track overtaking. So there doesnt seem to be too much wrong with the tracks....

I feel that fuel stops do need to be stopped, espcially as it seems that the company that manufactuers the rig's, still hasn't made it safe enough (MS fire in Austria...), but still allow tyre stops.

with regard to the slick - groove debate, go with slick's they look better, as well as providing a more progressive slip patern (would allow a drive to slide the car better, and don't you think if they had been allowed to stick with slicks they wouldn't have developed them too?

quick summary (as has already been pointed out elsewhere)
Reduce aero grip + Increase Mechanical + Put more reliance back onto the driver = better racing

(oh yeah, get rid of TC too!!!!)