Ferrari are perfectly justified

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Am I the only dissenting voice in all of this Austrian controversy?

I support Ferrari's decision. It makes perfect sense to maximise each and every opportunity they are presented with in their quest for another World Driver's crown.

Would there be as much fuss if it had happened further down the field for fifth and sixth places, or to a British team?

The reaction to yesterday's events more than anythin tells us how the modern sport's following has changed - ie its increased standing with the general public and occasional fans that make up the majority of F1 TV viewers. Now that every man-jack in every bar and office throughout the land has an opinion, the simplistic view comes across that team orders should not be allowed - even though in actual fact they have been with motorsport and F1 since its inception. The majority of viewers have no concept of this. The occasional/casual Sunday afternoon channel hopping viewers who sadly make up most of F1's audience during the football off season do not understand this concept and are interfering with their ill informed and badly thought out opinion - this is a sad but inevitable result of F1's increased level of popularity and coverage.

Due to this the press and public are reporting yesterday's race as if it is the first time team orders have ever been applied. However, motorsports enthusiasts and knowledgeable long term fans know that team orders are an intrinsic and justifiable element of motorsport.

[Morris 1100]

It is not what they did, it is how they did it.
Why wait till the last 100 yards and do it when he could have faked a tyre problem halfway thru the race and let him pass without all the fuss.

[jiggly_puff]

and also why not let rubens win??? they would still have got 16 constructor points and michael was already 21 points ahead! what they did was race fixing!

[drexel]

Now that every man-jack in every bar and office throughout the land has an opinion, the simplistic view comes across that team orders should not be allowed - even though in actual fact they have been with motorsport and F1 since its inception. The majority of viewers have no concept of this. The occasional/casual Sunday afternoon channel hopping viewers who sadly make up most of F1's audience during the football off season do not understand this concept and are interfering with their ill informed and badly thought out opinion - this is a sad but inevitable result of F1's increased level of popularity and coverage.

That's a pretty accurate assesment.

Why wait till the last 100 yards and do it when he could have faked a tyre problem halfway thru the race and let him pass without all the fuss.

Because then that takes the credit away from Barrichello.

[J.McClane]

Ferrari justified!!!!!!!!

How dose that work out then, are you another of these Ferrari/Shu fans with really bad eyesight?
It was CHEATIN' plain and simple, but you have nothin' to worry about, nothin' will come of this.

[Speeddemon555]

Bulls**t, Barrichello got gip by the crew of Ferrari. I hope the FIA will do something about it next month and the Monaco race won't be the same as the Austrian race. Barrichello will win Monaco in two weeks, he won't let team orders stand in the way.

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

I need to point out briefly tha I am NOT in any way, and have never been since I started watching GPs in 1981, a Ferrari OR TGF fan. As a matter of fact Ferrari have cheated more in the past than all other teams put together and have both acted and been treated like they are bigger than F1 - which they aren't of course.

However, I am a man of principle - Ferrari have not done anything wrong here and I have to stand up for them. The irony is the one time they do something within the rules they get slammed - when all the times they have genuinely cheated they have got away with it!

[J.McClane]

I bet that if it was the other way around and annother team had done exactly the same to help catch Shu in the Champoinship, the Ferrari/Shu fans would be doin' and sayin exactly the same thing that us F1 fans are sayin' about Ferrari right now.

Ferrari cheated AGAIN and it looks likr they have pushed the FIA just a little too far with this bit of CHEATIN'

[EvilPumpkin]

Fair comment, I ate.

Personally I have been following F1 for some time as, I suspect, have most people in this forum. I doubt there are many here who could be classified as "casual watchers". If they were, why would they waste their time commenting here?

In answer to your question, I do believe that had anyone driven a great race and been forced to submit to their teammate for reasons that were not mathematically apparent, there would be a similar uproar - in this forum and many other fan forums around the globe. Probably not in the national and international press though, I admit.

If you've been reading the threads in the forum then you'll know that the point that this has been done before and not just in F1 has been raised.

However, as has been pointed out by others
a) It is difficult to see the justification for this action given the current points structure
b) The manner in which it was done was absolutely appalling - to the extent that their top driver is embarassed by it

Just because something has been done before doesn't necessarily make it right. I happen to agree that in some circumstances it may possibly be justified - but there is a difference between doing something like this when there's only a couple of points between you and a rival team and what was done on Sunday.

[Inigo Montoya]

IAYO: Why are you surprised?

Have you not noticed the tendency around here to jump on the most minimal point and turn it into an anti-Ferrari/TGF bashing session?

That being said, given the lead that Ferrari has in the championship, and the fact that they have the best driver and the best car, this was an unnecessary Ferrari "own-goal" from the PR perspective...

And besides, it was Rubens wife's birthday on Sunday..

[AndyF]

Do you think there would have been such an uproar if it had been Williams doing it?! Or what would have happened if (just as an example), De La Rosa let Irvine through for a sixth place?

[J.McClane]

Irvine aint challengin' for the Championship.
Just for once i would lik to see Shu win a title he actually deserves.

The reason why there is such an up roar about the "incedent" is cos Ferrari have gotten away with it once too many times. The Ferrari TEAM would have still been in the same position if the 1st and 2nd places had remained as they were, it was done to benefit Shu not the team, and as i said they have gotten away with it all too often.

[kdr]

iayo

justified - lots of fortune-tellers out there who KNOW its not going to come down to these now infamous 4 points

[Arneal]

A couple weeks ago in the MotoGP the defending champion was looking for his record breaking 6th consequtive win but was trailing his teammate when the white flag flew. On the last lap he twice passed and was immediately repassed by his teammate. His teammate won the race, a race he very much deserved to win because he had beaten the defending champ on the track in a fanatastic battle.

Had there been team orders the champ, Valentino Rossi, would have broken the record, solidified his points lead, and robbed the fans of a great race. Team orders are not sporting, they are race fixing.

Any records "earned" or championships "won" through team orders are not worth having.

[J.McClane]

Very well said Arneal.
If Shu is supposed to be this all time great driver then lets see him EARN that title instead of it bein' handed to him Via his "teammates" and little bruv.

[kdr]

peter windsor wrote somewhere today, something along the lines that its only because of schumacher dragging ferrari to where they are now...that rubens is in a position to win races. therefore its his team, he's way ahead of rubens in wdc, therefore he's in a position where ferrari can make the call they did. i'm not really knowledgeable about the rulings...is what they did allowed? and did mclaren get punished after aus 1998?

[botsquad]

Originally posted by I Ate Yoko Ono
Am I the only dissenting voice in all of this Austrian controversy?
I support Ferrari's decision.

no...you are not..

jean toad and tgf are on your side..........


the rest of us.....the millions..........
and millions.........of race fans........

will shake our heads in disgust whenever a ferrari
driver pops the cork in parc-ferme

[steve_r]

Originally posted by I Ate Yoko Ono
Am I the only dissenting voice in all of this Austrian controversy?

Yes.

I've stuck up for MSch in the past, but cannot possibly stick up for Ferrari in any way at all this time.

[EERO]

I8YO,

I don't think anyone questions the legality or legitimacy of Team Orders. To me at least, its an issue of when it is appropriate to invoke them. This early in the season; with a substantial lead in the WDC; a dominant car; and a switcheroo pulled which will have no impact upon the WCC standings(16 points is 16 points for Ferrari whichever driver crosses the line first)it seems to me to be a little cynical of Ferrari to have made this decision.

[freud]

I cant believe that there is someone out there who still supports Ferrari after yesterday's ****ing debacle!

[Tristan]

If anything it's a PR disaster of a magnitude that F1 hasn't seen since..... well, at least in 94/97 Schumacher was RACING when the controversies around him blew up...

[Piquet]

To IAYO

"It makes perfect sense to maximise each and every opportunity they are presented with in their quest for another World Driver's crown."

- Is RB not a driver for Ferrari then? - what if something happens MS to prevent him from completing the whole season? - Ferrari are well shafted then - I'm no team owner but to me it would seem to make sense to have two drivers at the top, the second (probably RB) covering if something happens the first.

"Would there be as much fuss if it had happened further down the field for fifth and sixth places, or to a British team?"

- what has that got to do with the situation we had yesterday? - nothing !

"The reaction to yesterday's events more than anythin tells us how the modern sport's following has changed "

-yea, the more money you make for Bernie & co. the more the rules can be bent!!!

"the simplistic view comes across that team orders should not be allowed - even though in actual fact they have been with motorsport and F1 since its inception."

- yes they have and they always will be - the clue is in the question, if you want the TEAM to win the WCC then orders are justified - YES, but when you start messing around to influence results for a "team" of one (MS) - then that is NOT justified ! Here is something to think about- if Ferrari and people like yourself are so concerned with the "team" winning, lets scrap the drivers championship then - lets just have a "team" championship, would the drivers be happy ?? - you tell me.

"The majority of viewers have no concept of this. The occasional/casual Sunday afternoon channel hopping viewers who sadly make up most of F1's audience during the football off season do not understand this concept and are interfering with their ill informed and badly thought out opinion - this is a sad but inevitable result of F1's increased level of popularity and coverage."

Ironically, this is why I think the FIA will have to do something about yesterdays farce. That increased popularity & coverage accounts for a large proportion of the money flowing into Bernie's pants. If these "sunday afternoon channel hoppers" get disenchanted with the sport they will switch off, not subscribe to digital and all the other money making schemes in F1 at present - Bernie & Co. will get less money - Bernie doesn't like that! And its sad that if we do get rule changes/clarifications or whatever they will call it, it will be for these financial reasons and not for the honourable reasons - to do what is right.

This is not an attack on you IAYO, you are entitled to your opinions as are Ferrari, I am just angry about what this says to the world about the condition of a once fine sport and the path to disaster it is being lead down - by a bunch of money crazed fools. One day our children won't believe the stories about the way it used to be!! - at least I have the memories !

GP - RIP

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Piquet, don't worry no ofence was taken!

Believe me, I don't like Ferrari per se any more than many of you do - but it is both heavily ironic and, frankly, quite irritating that in all the times they have cheated in the past they have gotten away with at most a modicum of fuss and a slap on the wrist by FIA (eg TGF ramming Villeneuve Jerez '97, illegal body work Malaysia '99), and now they have done something that has been an acceptable and fully legal part of motorsport since its creation, they are being absolutely caned by the general press/public!

The main point of my thread I feel is being missed by most posts here, if not Piquet's. This sort of thing has happened in the past and was not nearly as controversial. As F1 has increased in popularity with the general public, casual and occasional viewers (and national print/TV journalists), as opposed to die hard fans, have made up an increasingly high proportion of the those watching. These people DO NOT (unlike us dedicated forumers) compare F1 to CART, or IRL, or GT, or World Rallying, or F3000, or BTCC, or NASCAR etc - they compare it to football, rugby, cricket, athletics etc. In other words F1's rivals for coverage and viewers are other sports, NOT other motor racing formulae. The standards of these other sports are then ignorantly applied to motor racing by the press and "fans".

These casual but general sports fans and journalists then spout their genius opinions on what they feel is right and wrong with F1. They do not understand the frequent necessity of motorsport team orders. Even those that have shown some understanding are going down the utterly irrelevant route of when it was done, how it was done etc (ie "so early in the season, huge points lead, dominant car" etc). YOU EITHER BELIEVE IN TEAM ORDERS OR YOU DON'T. How it is done after you have established which side of the fence you sit on is an utter red herring and plays no part in this argument, IMO.

The fact is it wasn't nice what we saw in Austria but any die hard motorsports fan who is honest with themself knows that team orders have ALWAYS been a part of motorsport, and have influenced the outcome of many championships. The manner and timing of their application is irrelevant.

For all Todt knows, it might be the only chance he's going to get all year to get TGF a few extra points in this particular manner - Williams could turn it round you know, and Ferrari know it.

[strad]

So let me get this straight..
Y'all don't like that it was done so blatantly and would have preffered what? That they try to be sneaky and pretend the botched a pit stop? That would have been better?
If they had tried to hide it you wouldn't be so upset?
Get real..it was a solid business decision...I don't neccesarially like it but it was absolutely the correct thing to do from a business viewpoint.

[J.McClane]

No, we would prefer that they didn't do it at all, they have cheated F1 and Ferrari/Barras fans.