the grid girl debate

[crmalcolm]

It looks like the removal of Grid Girls is being considered as a future change to the sport....

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/42346331

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It looks like the removal of Grid Girls is being considered as a future change to the sport....

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/42346331

There's also a poll that accompanies that article with 60% in favour of keeping Grid Girls and 40% against, thus far.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It looks like the removal of Grid Girls is being considered as a future change to the sport....

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/42346331

The article does a pretty good job of summing up the issues with grid girls.

The times, they are a changin!

About a year or so ago, my local car club had a knock-down-drag-out online fight about grid girls. Our award ceremonies are generally just a bunch of people standing around as someone reads the results at the end of the event! But at larger events in the past we had some podium girls. If I remember correctly it was an anniversary year for us, so people were posting photos from older events on our Facebook page. Photos which included podium girls.

That triggered a furor of condemnation by a segment of our members in that they felt the photos were inappropriate and that the usage of the models was wrong. The fight within our club that lasted for many days. I believe positions on the topic had a strong correlation to the age of the individual.

While that was awhile back, we also have here in the US (to be honest, I don't have a good view as to how much of this is playing out globally) the watershed "#MeToo" moment. So anything that smacks of misogyny is a hot potato right now. And for some grid girls could be the poster child for that.

Given F1 is a world series, and that views globally on what is "acceptable" are probably all over the place, I think no single answer is going to satisfy everyone for sure! With that said... I expect the days of grid girls are numbered regardless of your individual opinion on the topic.

Richard

[ScotsBrutesFan]

But this isn't something for F1 to rule on surely. It's the local sponsors/promotors that arrange and hire the event "promotional personnel".

Personally, I think that if someone regardless of gender, wants to earn money by holding a grid number or national flag at an event then that should be their choice.

I would say however that if a "uniform" is required, it should be appropriate to the event, audience and weather conditions.

[bella]

last year, i was ambivalent towards grid girls. whatever, they're making bank and it makes men look pretty pathetic for not being able to appreciate a sport without some trophy women parading around.

this year i'm the exact opposite. i've seen so many little girls watching me and other girls doing hands-on jobs working alongside the guys this year. when i was growing up the only jobs that i saw women doing in f1 was being a press officer, making the tea, being a wife, or being a grid girl. now little girls growing up can see women in pretty much every single area of the sport, doing pretty much every job out there for different teams. if seeing me work has made even one young woman broaden her potential career path then that's awesome.

it counters the idea that to get close to the sport otherwise you have to be tall, skinny, attractive and wear more makeup than all of little mix put together.

[Mike Harte]

I am certainly of the older generation, yet I have felt for many years that the grid and podium girls were inappropriate. And they are usually made to dress in a way that is provocative in my eyes.

And the stupidity of it is that they do not add any value to the racing, which is what it should be all about. Just like all the glitz, glamour and "celebrity" on show on the grid prior to the start of the race.

I don't get this whole business about a F1 weekend being about the "show". The show should be 24 or even more cars/drivers all racing to win a gruelling race.

But then I'm just an old fart!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

But this isn't something for F1 to rule on surely. It's the local sponsors/promotors that arrange and hire the event "promotional personnel".

Personally, I think that if someone regardless of gender, wants to earn money by holding a grid number or national flag at an event then that should be their choice.

I would say however that if a "uniform" is required, it should be appropriate to the event, audience and weather conditions.

I think in the article, the bosses of Silverstone say that it is not their call - but a requirement of the series?


'Individual grands prix cannot opt out of F1's use of 'grid girls'.

Silverstone boss Stuart Pringle says his personal view is the practice is "outdated", adding "lycra can stay in the 1970s and 80s for me, I don't want any of that tarty nonsense".

He acknowledges "very smartly presented, beautiful ladies" have "added a certain amount of glamour" but added: "Our fans and spectators and customers come to Silverstone and think that because its happening at Silverstone it must be Silverstone's decision as they think quite a lot of it is down to us, when remarkably little is on occasion.

"There is a perception that this is Silverstone's view but actually we think its an egalitarian world and I don't want my daughter growing up thinking that lycra is what she ought to aspire to."'

[chillibowl]

have other series not stopped the practice of girls on the grid already? maybe WEC? cant remember which series though.

but enter into a hospitality area and/or a fan zone and you will find any number of girls in spandex outfits promoting products and guys standing in line to take their photos with them.

anyways, this sounds more like a TV/optics issue for the new owners...they are still fine with the practice as long as it is done away from the cameras kind of thing.

agree with Mike... i dont see what value is added by having grid girls or grid guys out there next to the cars.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bella

this year i'm the exact opposite. i've seen so many little girls watching me and other girls doing hands-on jobs working alongside the guys this year. when i was growing up the only jobs that i saw women doing in f1 was being a press officer, making the tea, being a wife, or being a grid girl. now little girls growing up can see women in pretty much every single area of the sport, doing pretty much every job out there for different teams. if seeing me work has made even one young woman broaden her potential career path then that's awesome.

indeed.

also an important lesson for young boys to see and learn as well!

[bella]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

He acknowledges "very smartly presented, beautiful ladies" have "added a certain amount of glamour" but added: "Our fans and spectators and customers come to Silverstone and think that because its happening at Silverstone it must be Silverstone's decision as they think quite a lot of it is down to us, when remarkably little is on occasion.

"There is a perception that this is Silverstone's view but actually we think its an egalitarian world and I don't want my daughter growing up thinking that lycra is what she ought to aspire to."'

promising words from mr pringle, but sir, how about you use the commercial freedoms that do exist to supply some "very smartly presented, beautiful" GENTLEMEN as well? they too add a "certain amount of glamour", you know.

if they can find enough beautiful women to stand around holding flags and signs they can find enough beautiful men to fulfil some function on the grid. or lining up the stairs applauding for the tv cameras.

if the concept of "smartly presented [and] beautiful" applies for women it should apply for men too.

[wnut]

To me a race meeting was always an enjoyable carnival full of interesting people, sights, and of course fast cars.

So yes, let's make the show a little poorer and worse.

Political correctness, wowsers and their cohorts to the fore.

Here is one relationship that would not have happened without grid girls, and a woman's job that will cease to exist with the demise of grid girls.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/...a7baeead589fb2

But hey ho, let the miseries prevail.

May I add

Adriana Stoner
Teresa Earnhardt

Were also originally grid girls, and just entered racing on a pleasant day out, and met their husbands.

Sure there are lots of others too.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

May I add

Adriana Stoner
Teresa Earnhardt

Were also originally grid girls, and just entered racing on a pleasant day out, and met their husbands.

Sure there are lots of others too.

i hope you're being sarcastic.

so your concern in this is men.. no, people getting laid who frankly, in modern times, have no issue getting laid in the first place. it's motorsport, not a dating service. i know a couple of girls who met their partners at the circuit too but they aren't racers or promotions staff.

your examples aren't strictly correct - as far as i recall, adriana was an underage fan when they met at an autograph session. don't need to point out what part of that is a bit weird.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

i hope you're being sarcastic.

so your concern in this is men.. no, people getting laid who frankly, in modern times, have no issue getting laid in the first place. it's motorsport, not a dating service. i know a couple of girls who met their partners at the circuit too but they aren't racers or promotions staff.

your examples aren't strictly correct - as far as i recall, adriana was an underage fan when they met at an autograph session. don't need to point out what part of that is a bit weird.

Not at all.

My concern is that simply because a woman goes to motor racing as a member of the promotional staff, she should not be typecast as such.
Teresa is now the owner and managing director of Dale Earnhardt Incorporated.
Regarding Casey and Adriana, without your characterization of their relationship, he and she obviously thought enough of one another that is was not simply sex, which either of them could have apparently achieved easily enough according to your characterization.

I find it interesting that as soon as a good looking woman comes near a racing circuit people feel it necessary to demean their contribution. Racing is sponsored for promotion of products and the promotional staff are important. They are good for the sport and often stay and contribute a lot beyond their initial involvement.

Why should the social justice warriors and trolls limit the opportunities for women to be involved in the sport?

Glamour attracts glamour, and well presented women bring in more women, all of which is good for motor racing.

Men only environments suck, and anyway of diluting them is good.

Besides you have had all the attractive men in suits, Jean Todt, Bernie, and the Premier of Bananastan clogging up the podiums for years, oh yeah and all the drivers. Don't begrudge us two well turned out women on the podium. They should be allowed to make a living too.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

Why should the social justice warriors and trolls limit the opportunities for women to be involved in the sport?

Glamour attracts glamour, and well presented women bring in more women, all of which is good for motor racing.

Men only environments suck, and anyway of diluting them is good.

Besides you have had all the attractive men in suits, Jean Todt, Bernie, and the Premier of Bananastan clogging up the podiums for years, oh yeah and all the drivers. Don't begrudge us two well turned out women on the podium. They should be allowed to make a living too.

Nobody is saying that F1 and motorsport in general shouldn't try to attract women into the business. What most people with my views believe is that they shouldn't need to be dressed in figure hugging clothes that are designed purely to exaggerate their female attributes. I mean, you didn't and still don't see Claire Williams parading around in Spandex/Lycra, and she is the top women in F1.

The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.

[S griffin]

With so many more females getting involved in motorsport, it don't matter too much. Grid girls ain't an F1 problem. It being hard to follow the car in front, now that's a problem

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Nobody is saying that F1 and motorsport in general shouldn't try to attract women into the business. What most people with my views believe is that they shouldn't need to be dressed in figure hugging clothes that are designed purely to exaggerate their female attributes. I mean, you didn't and still don't see Claire Williams parading around in Spandex/Lycra, and she is the top women in F1.

The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.

Oh, so now we are saying that women should be subject to dress standards in our new "modern society" or just when attending racing or car shows!

Are you going to set up a little fashion police squad at the gate and make the girls all parade in front of a committee to see that they are decently enough dressed to attend? You think that wouldn't be demeaning to women?

Better yet just ban women from attending races because the men may look at them!

My what a nice little police state we are proposing.

Maybe the politically correct want to live in it, I for one don't.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

Glamour attracts glamour, and well presented women bring in more women, all of which is good for motor racing.

ah, mansplaining. wondered when that would crop up. thank you for telling women how we should feel.

fwiw, i, and none of my female friends working in the sport got into it because of grid girls. they make us feel incredibly uncomfortable. especially those of us given men's team clothing or ill-fitting "women's" stuff...

look, i'm not a bra burner or a feminist. i really dislike the hardcore twitter campaigns out there, and i'm not a member nor a supporter of d2bd, like quite a few women in the sport. let's just get that out of the way.

you want to look at hot women with your sport, we get it. but hot women can buy tickets like the rest of us, or work in the sport like the rest of us.

i have no beef with hospitality and marketing staff, doing a job other than standing around handing out leaflets and freebies in lycra or any other generic inappropriate outfit. there's plenty of hot women working in marketing, as much as there's hot women working in public relations, and as engineers and spanners.

it's kind of like the "rock test" for guys unsure of how to conduct themselves around women to avoid harassment accusations. if you wouldn't employ a guy in a similar outfit to do a job, don't ask a woman to do it either.

just a side "cool story, bro", but the only place where i have ever had men discuss my appearance close enough that i could hear them was at the australian grand prix whilst spectating.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

ah, mansplaining. wondered when that would crop up. thank you for telling women how we should feel.

fwiw, i, and none of my female friends working in the sport got into it because of grid girls. they make us feel incredibly uncomfortable. especially those of us given men's team clothing or ill-fitting "women's" stuff...

look, i'm not a bra burner or a feminist. i really dislike the hardcore twitter campaigns out there, and i'm not a member nor a supporter of d2bd, like quite a few women in the sport. let's just get that out of the way.

you want to look at hot women with your sport, we get it. but hot women can buy tickets like the rest of us, or work in the sport like the rest of us.

i have no beef with hospitality and marketing staff, doing a job other than standing around handing out leaflets and freebies in lycra or any other generic inappropriate outfit. there's plenty of hot women working in marketing, as much as there's hot women working in public relations, and as engineers and spanners.

it's kind of like the "rock test" for guys unsure of how to conduct themselves around women to avoid harassment accusations. if you wouldn't employ a guy in a similar outfit to do a job, don't ask a woman to do it either.

just a side "cool story, bro", but the only place where i have ever had men discuss my appearance close enough that i could hear them was at the australian grand prix whilst spectating.

Thanks for the mansplaining dig.

I just think that peoples freedoms should not be taken away by others in the name of whatever.

Your "rock test", in my book is just criminal assault by the perpetrator, and should be dealt with as such.

"Cool story bro", doubtless they were fat, ugly, drunk, and definitely stupid, so sub-human really in my book. Still, useless as the sentiment is, I apologize for the behavior of the idiots of my sex.

Feminism quite bluntly makes me sick, when I see how men often treat women, I know where it comes from. I have no answer.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Nobody is saying that F1 and motorsport in general shouldn't try to attract women into the business. What most people with my views believe is that they shouldn't need to be dressed in figure hugging clothes that are designed purely to exaggerate their female attributes. I mean, you didn't and still don't see Claire Williams parading around in Spandex/Lycra, and she is the top women in F1.

The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.

That's because it was thought and to an extent still is, which is why they are still used in promotion, that grid girls or girls draped across car bonnets, make the product sexy and exciting, with the target market being male.

Indeed in this day and age it has been argued it is demeaning. Bearing that in mind but looking at this from a marketing point of view, is the continued use of grid girls or girls draped across car bonnets still an effective marketing tool, or is it now tired and outdated, especially when the environment is playing such a big part in the automotive industry?

[Sodemo]

As long as the women involved actually want to be there and aren't being coerced in some way, then I dont see a problem with it. However knowing which way the wind is blowing on the subject of "women in the media" (The Sun being strongarmed into dropping Page 3, and current sexual celeb assault revelations) I can see the practice of having grid girls being dropped pretty soon. Not that it would bother me, however i'd feel sorry for the women who lose out on paid work.

[wnut]

WEC Lemans Pre-Grid 2017

I think there are 4 women including Maria S in the photo, such inclusion.

Guess she should not be there as she is purely promotional in this setting.

[bella]

Originally Posted by wnut

Thanks for the mansplaining dig.

I just think that peoples freedoms should not be taken away by others in the name of whatever.

Your "rock test", in my book is just criminal assault by the perpetrator, and should be dealt with as such.

"Cool story bro", doubtless they were fat, ugly, drunk, and definitely stupid, so sub-human really in my book. Still, useless as the sentiment is, I apologize for the behavior of the idiots of my sex.

Feminism quite bluntly makes me sick, when I see how men often treat women, I know where it comes from. I have no answer.

you earnt it

you need to re-read the rock test. it's a half-mickey take, half-serious thing. the concept is basically that if a man is struggling to know how to communicate and relate to a female worker for fear of being misinterpreted, they should ask themselves how they'd speak to "the rock" (massive hench ex-wrestler, now actor and all-round dude that people from both genders respect). the male response to the concept is often a bit of a joke about how they'd flirt with the rock as well, but that reaction in itself is pretty telling.

i was going to say the "cool story" guys were in fact average guys, but that reinforces the notion that attractive people are more entitled to judge the looks of others... it would have been a crappy thing to do even if they were male models. based on the grid girl and promotional model culture in said sport in said country i wasn't surprised to hear it, let's put it that way.

the thing is, grid girls and promotional models are a symptom of toxic masculinity. it's kind of a response to feminism in the same way that turning feminism from what it actually is - the drive for equal rights and equal treatment for women - into something that promotes women as being better than men and deserving positive discrimination to demonise us.

the reason feminists get a bit cross is that whilst they say "look at this crap attitude society has specifically directed at women", a vocal male reaction is "not all men" or "that's not true, i'll mansplain why". men don't listen to women's experiences, they wait till we're finished and explain why we're wrong, or why what we've experienced doesn't happen, isn't true or worse, we just got the wrong end of the stick.

something you hear a lot is men having to rationalise stuff in the "my female relative" context - a guy would leer at a grid girl, comment on her appearance and make lewd remarks but wouldn't want other men to do the same to his daughter or sister.

this is going way off topic, but it's inextricably linked to the thread - there's some absolutely incredible female minds out there who are an asset to any company they work for. we need to make them feel welcome into the sport for its own sake.

i'm not trying to be the fun police, or take away anything. i'm just really not here for men justifying sexist nonsense because they think it benefits everyone when really it just benefits men and the couple of women they're perving at.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

it's kind of like the "rock test" for guys unsure of how to conduct themselves around women to avoid harassment accusations.

Thanks for that link. That was a good article.

Can I make a suggestion? (Feel free to ignore) I know that this topic ultimately was kicked off as to how F1 might run events in the future (not really "rules" related, but still sort of on-topic). But should this be a topic/thread of it's own? Especially if the discussion continues? I think it is maybe off-topic (for this thread), but a good topic for the forum.

Richard

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Thanks for that link. That was a good article.

Can I make a suggestion? (Feel free to ignore) I know that this topic ultimately was kicked off as to how F1 might run events in the future (not really "rules" related, but still sort of on-topic). But should this be a topic/thread of it's own? Especially if the discussion continues? I think it is maybe off-topic (for this thread), but a good topic for the forum.

Richard

I was going to suggest the exact same thing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

have other series not stopped the practice of girls on the grid already? maybe WEC? cant remember which series though.

WEC said it did but it didn't really. There are now grid people (men) in white jeans and a WEC T-Shirt holding flags at the front of the grid. About 4-5 of them. That's not really a problem, as everyones dressed casual and there's men and women. The grid girls holding flags are indeed gone. But in the paddock there is still advertising girls and all that lycra nonsense. And girls in parc ferme where the cars park, looking very awkward and out of place. So WEC took a tiny step forward with it, but nothing significant.

IMO - grid girls should go. They add absolutely nothing what so ever to the show or sport. And I'd make an argument that glamour is possibly the worst thing that could happen to F1 anyway. Give me a half dirty Sebring tent any day over the glamour of F1.

If you like grid girls, fine. That's your opinion and it's fine to say "I like this". But don't try and explain it away with absolute ******** like "models need jobs too". Aye, so do male models, but if we put men in lycra on the grid then people would lose their minds. It's fine to like it, but don't try and justify it with half baked reasons. Just man up (oh the irony) and admit you like it because you like it. But don't worry, they might find a husband from it. Dear lord.