WEC Toyota Hypercar Discussion

Gingers4Justice · 23 Jun 2019, 13:50 (Ref:3913704)

Thought I’d start a new thread to keep the TS050 discussion separate.

To kick things off, here’s the video of the mule testing, in case you haven’t seen it...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p3s3cR2Jm2k

TF110 · 23 Jun 2019, 16:53 (Ref:3913743)

Still think the black car is what should be their 'hypercar' for the new rules and the GR SS should be the road car that they take inspiration from. Apparently the GR SS had a lot shared with the TS050 when it was shown off early last year. It would be nice to know when the latest video was taken compared to the video with the black test car. We know their release dates but not when the actual testing took place. I say that because at the 2018 TAS (tokyo auto salon) during the GR presentation they said the car has already been testing at Fuji. So that'd be nice to find out if it was the actual camo'd car on the last video or the black one.

chernaudi · 23 Jun 2019, 18:30 (Ref:3913762)

Biggest things barrowed from the TS050 for the GR Super Sport were the engine, gearbox internals and hybrid system.

Am I right in still thinking that the Toyota LMP1 hypercar will be almost a LMP1 DPI in so far as it'll take external inspiration from the GR Super Sport, but under the skin will be a 2000mm wide LMP1?

deggis · 25 Jun 2019, 00:48 (Ref:3914033)

It would make more sense if that test mule in the video is the original concept car that was presented many months ago (but this time a real moving car, as concept cars presented in auto shows often aren't real...), hence the lack of race car bodywork. There apparently is an intention to make a production GR Super Sport at some point but that might move on and progress separately from the race car development.

The renders shown a week ago look a lot different.

chernaudi · 25 Jun 2019, 01:06 (Ref:3914034)

From what I understand, which isn't much, Toyota are basically making a DPI-like LMP1. It'll be built to LMP1 rules, but will take styling cues/elements from the GR Super Sport.

TF110 · 25 Jun 2019, 03:21 (Ref:3914044)

The GR SS is the road hypercar. Toyota said that it was testing already. My guess is that the camo car was what they were talking about, not the black one. Their new lmp-hypercar won't be made from a road car, so that means the GR SS isn't the race car but it will take cues from the GR SS. It's all confusing but I don't think the GR SS that's shown testing in camo from the latest video, is going to be their race car. It's too early for them to be testing it when the rules are just now finalized. Toyota admitted that themselves when asked about the new regs situation. They said the ACO/FIA was leaving it really late for them to get a car built and ready for testing. If that's the case then the GR SS isn't going to be used for the new regs. It also seems like there's no more incentive to run a road car turned race car in the rules.

kvenom · 9 Dec 2019, 16:53 (Ref:3945760)

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...selon/4606172/

These things will probably have the reliability of a 10 year old out of warranty BMW.

Deleted · 9 Dec 2019, 17:01 (Ref:3945761)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvenom

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...selon/4606172/

These things will probably have the reliability of a 10 year old out of warranty BMW.

But even after the season has started they have 9 months to iron it out for LM, it will be fine

One could say that reliability factor may have bigger impact in a BoP class than in tech class where everything is spread out naturally, but it also means teams have to push the limits far less

TF110 · 9 Dec 2019, 19:30 (Ref:3945793)

I wonder if it's going to carry over the powertrain? At least the engine I could see. But there will have to be changes because there's no more rear driven hybrid. So while it's still awd, it'll be fwd hybrid power. If the engine is the same, that saves a good amount of time I'd guess.

deggis · 9 Dec 2019, 20:45 (Ref:3945808)

In season 1 testing will be unlimited so maybe that helps.

Deleted · 9 Dec 2019, 20:48 (Ref:3945810)

Oh that's right

Which is kind of interesting for cost savings class, would've been welcome in the later stage of LMP1

truebeliever · 9 Dec 2019, 22:28 (Ref:3945831)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

Oh that's right

Which is kind of interesting for cost savings class, would've been welcome in the later stage of LMP1

I guess what you keep forgetting, any decision taken by the ACO, has nothing to do with concern for the fans/the teams/the people who actually make it all possible, and everything to do with filling the ACO coffers.

Also remember, ''Whoever pays the Piper, calls the tune."

Pretty obvious the current payer is Toyota, so the ACO Piper will play their tune.

Deleted · 10 Dec 2019, 10:47 (Ref:3945903)

Quote:

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I guess what you keep forgetting, any decision taken by the ACO, has nothing to do with concern for the fans/the teams/the people who actually make it all possible, and everything to do with filling the ACO coffers.

Also remember, ''Whoever pays the Piper, calls the tune."

Pretty obvious the current payer is Toyota, so the ACO Piper will play their tune.

Pretty sure it's not Toyota who mostly calls the shots, but Aston Martin, otherwise we would have never leaned away from the original regulations presented in December 2018

TF110 · 11 Dec 2019, 20:58 (Ref:3946224)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

Pretty sure it's not Toyota who mostly calls the shots, but Aston Martin, otherwise we would have never leaned away from the original regulations presented in December 2018

Right. And we probably would have had much more hybrid power allowed. Now total power is limited to ~750hp. Aston Martin doesn't have hybrid the way Toyota does.

truebeliever · 12 Dec 2019, 09:13 (Ref:3946282)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF110

Right. And we probably would have had much more hybrid power allowed. Now total power is limited to ~750hp. Aston Martin doesn't have hybrid the way Toyota does.

Believe as you want, but it is Toyota

Aston Martin are not in a strong company financial position to be dictating much to anyone anymore.

kvenom · 12 Dec 2019, 10:48 (Ref:3946288)

Oreca is ending operational support with Toyota after Le Mans for Peugeot. Toyota-Joest anyone?

GasperG · 12 Dec 2019, 14:46 (Ref:3946320)

Quote:

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Believe as you want, but it is Toyota

Aston Martin are not in a strong company financial position to be dictating much to anyone anymore.

It's not always about the money, AM had good negotiating position "If we don't like it, then we will not enter"

chernaudi · 12 Dec 2019, 16:16 (Ref:3946335)

And we have to remember that the ACO have had a recent history of pandering to OEMs and that such OEMs tend to get what they want. Especially as it seems that not just AMR but now Peugeot are on board for Hypercar.

Deleted · 12 Dec 2019, 16:52 (Ref:3946345)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasperG

It's not always about the money, AM had good negotiating position "If we don't like it, then we will not enter"

That's the golden ticket of lobbying

TF110 · 12 Dec 2019, 18:37 (Ref:3946367)

If Toyota had it their way, there wouldn't be an Aston Martin Valkyrie entering next season. They were all signed up for 3 ers's and 10mj+ of electric energy per lap at Le Mans. Now they have to limit their hybrid to 250kw and only are allowed 1 ers on the car unless they make a production version.

chernaudi · 12 Dec 2019, 18:46 (Ref:3946372)

Also if Toyota had their way Audi Sport and Porsche would still be in LMP1. They do want to race against other OEMs as well as race a hybrid. Getting AMR onboard, even with the LMP1 Hypercar concessions, is better than nothing or having to wait until 2022 for Peugeot.

Also, TMG were trying to lobby for reduced costs or other ways of rationalizing costs. Hypercar in theory allows for significant budget cuts, as well as rationalizing costs by possibly selling customer cars. Other than having the best package, why do you think Oreca is happy with LMP2? Oreca has probably made a ton of Euros off sales of the Oreca 07 and support packages. And that's what AMR also pushed for since they want to have customer teams in hypercar, and I'd think that Toyota might also jump at the right opportunity.

deggis · 13 Dec 2019, 14:00 (Ref:3946517)

Quote:

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Believe as you want, but it is Toyota

Aston Martin are not in a strong company financial position to be dictating much to anyone anymore.

Had they not greenlighted the program hypercar regs wouldn't have happened or they would be still in a limbo.

So I'd say that's a pretty strong position to get the regs changed to their liking.

Deleted · 14 Dec 2019, 11:56 (Ref:3946672)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF110

If Toyota had it their way, there wouldn't be an Aston Martin Valkyrie entering next season. They were all signed up for 3 ers's and 10mj+ of electric energy per lap at Le Mans. Now they have to limit their hybrid to 250kw and only are allowed 1 ers on the car unless they make a production version.

Had Toyota known for sure Peugeot was officially entering 2022 by the time regulations were re-re-re-written to accommodate the needs and limitations of AMR, I suspect they would've been more strongly opposed to changing anything. Perhaps even threatened leaving. But now they just went along with it because they didn't only want to compete against Glickenhaus, Kolles and old P1s while waiting of nothing concrete

truebeliever · 15 Dec 2019, 16:46 (Ref:3946866)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasperG

It's not always about the money, AM had good negotiating position "If we don't like it, then we will not enter"

IT IS "ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY"

No money to spend with the ACO, no interest from the ACO. They do not care if Le Mans runs with pedal cars, so long as there is BIG money in it for them.

truebeliever · 15 Dec 2019, 16:50 (Ref:3946869)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deggis

Had they not greenlighted the program hypercar regs wouldn't have happened or they would be still in a limbo.

So I'd say that's a pretty strong position to get the regs changed to their liking.

Really?

The program being "Green lit", is entirely based on other people's funding coming into the deal. Wait and see.

Reg changes easily happen with greased palms, or at least with the ''promise'' of greased palms to come.

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