VAG in F1?

Mr A Pie · 7 Jul 2004, 17:48 (Ref:1029464)

Does anyone know the real truth about VAG joining F1 in the next two seasons, running the car as an Audi to compete with BMW, Merc. Development of a V10 under development??. One of the most successful sports car teams... could thay pull it off??

Cadete · 7 Jul 2004, 17:49 (Ref:1029467)

the rumours about Audi are about a new LMP1 to run at Le Mans, perhaps a diesel.
I don't think they want to join F1

**Adam43** · 7 Jul 2004, 17:51 (Ref:1029468)

Well Audi committed it's future to Le Mans at the race this year and a building an R9. See the Sportscar Forum for more on this.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they won't do F1 as well. Or even use a different brand. However I think this is unlikely. At the moment Audi are getting a lot of publicity in sportscar - they are the Ferrari there in terms of results. They keep winning the Le Mans 24 hours - which is worth a lot.

Kicking-back · 7 Jul 2004, 18:04 (Ref:1029484)

Audi seem committed to Le Mans and DTM, SEAT to Touring Cars and Skoda to rallying

Mr A Pie · 7 Jul 2004, 18:08 (Ref:1029491)

VAG own Vickers....Vickers used to have Cosworth in its group, cosworth was split by Vag with Cos Racing sold to Ford and Cos Technology was kept. VAG are rumoured to be sniffing around the Cosworth backed Teams....Funnily enough all three Teams including their "Works" team are having difficulties..... Interesting to note. Also Coswoth Racing have just got rid of Nick Hayes...

Andy Roberts · 7 Jul 2004, 18:17 (Ref:1029497)

Would be cool if Porsche came into F1

Mr A Pie · 7 Jul 2004, 18:21 (Ref:1029501)

Would be... but not the same market as BMW, Merc, Jag etc... with Ferrari being the execption. Porsche are also 90% VAG owned.

Super Tourer · 7 Jul 2004, 19:01 (Ref:1029524)

I think VAG keep an eye, when the any cost savings and rule changes have panned out they make look more seriously. Sauber are often mentioned as a possible suitor.

Currently however, I would think the combination of the leadtime for any meaningful results, and the budget required is enough to put them off.

Compare the 'value' they've had from the R8 program to the cost of F1...Arguab;y for a sporting saloon brand like Audi, showing speed and reliablity in sportsvars and Le Mans is more relevant to their core values.

VAG only do things properly as a rule, which in current F1 terms would mean a budget commitment of $1 billion and a lead time of 3 to 4 years before results would kick in, along with an unquantifiable amount of 'public pain' in the meantime, whilst they get up to speed.

In the end for a brand built of Audi's values, what's a better sales tool for their dealers?

Snrub · 8 Jul 2004, 16:23 (Ref:1030409)

I agree with what Super Tourer has said.

Consider Audi's history making success at Le Mans, et al. They're gettting excellent exposure from that. Why would they want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to compete with the other manufacturers in F1 and potentially look bad. No matter what they do they cannot achieve the same in F1 as they have with the R8. If one's motorsports reputation goes from a historical dominance and success at Le Mans but failure/mild success at F1 it would hurt their imagine and ultimately they would have been better off staying out of F1.

Also, with the amount of money being spent on F1 do ANY of the auto manufacturers get good value for their money? I really doubt it. Does anyone have a positive impression of Toyota as a result of their F1 efforts? BMW has had positive press by the perception of their engine being the best. Is it worth the $150M/year (or whatever) they spend? Renault is getting some positive press, there's a chance that it's worth it for them. Ferrari's brand is maintained by F1, but ultimately they're not the same kind of company. Honda spends gobs of money, probably the most for just engine development, but their poor record until this year and continued sketchy reliability aren't doing them much good.

kdr · 8 Jul 2004, 16:32 (Ref:1030419)

toyota are in f1?

Snrub · 8 Jul 2004, 16:36 (Ref:1030426)

Yes I think I saw a Toyota battling with that Baumgartner guy in the fast car.

Mr A Pie · 8 Jul 2004, 16:47 (Ref:1030437)

We should never underestimate a company who could buy Ford for cash. (Toyota)
On the other hand is it hurting them not to be in F1!! maybe!!! Why not take the ultimate step up rather than missing out on 35m viewing figures. What you say is right, may be they are frightened to have egg on their face.. but the cost is so insignificant. IE, the Jag budget is half of what Ford spend on Paper clips each year..... Honest!

nkh · 8 Jul 2004, 17:00 (Ref:1030450)

Mercedes, BMW and Toyota all made the move from Le Mans to F1. Mercedes is doing DTM and F1 at the same time, BMW are doing ETCC and F1 at the same time, FIAT are doing GT races, Le Mans, ETCC and so on at the same time as F1. I don't see why being at Le Mans makes it imposible for VAG to do F1. They'll build the R9, run a factory team for a year, then sell the cars and they'll probably still win Le Mans for some years to come, in that time they could start an F1 project while wining Le Mans with little effort. They could start with branding their engines/team Lamborghini or Seat and then change the name to Audi when they're close to success.

shiny side up! · 8 Jul 2004, 17:03 (Ref:1030454)

I would hardly call hundreds of millions of dollars insignificant... and I seriously doubt that Ford or Honda or whoever reap that much in profits due to their participation in F1. I have never known anyone who bought a car because it looked like the one they saw on the F1 telecast...

Mr A Pie · 8 Jul 2004, 17:12 (Ref:1030463)

Then why badge the "Ford" as a Jag.... Its an association people like to be associated... thats all, Its all Branding and Car sales. And yes 3 or 4 hundered million is insignificant when you have profits running in to 40Bln and an advertising budget of 5Bln. You're right when you say F1 Teams dont make a profit but the branding and image does....millions, I suggest you try and pick up a Mag called Business F1...it's quite pricey but a bloody good read!!

Mr A Pie · 8 Jul 2004, 17:16 (Ref:1030468)

However.... does anyone thing VAG should be in F1... partnered with another "Blue and Silver" Company partial to a sweet drink!.... rumours thickened today when VAG bought a Building on the same plot of land as a TEAM with a building of VAG World IT support!!

f1manoz · 8 Jul 2004, 17:19 (Ref:1030470)

This has been discussed numerous times, but it always seems to come to the same conclusion - it would be good to have another manufacturer, they'll likely take over Sauber (or partner), they'll get plenty of exposure, should be able to afford it but for some reason they just won't take the plunge.

**chunterer** · 8 Jul 2004, 17:20 (Ref:1030472)

Toyota didn't go near F1 for years as it wasn't in their remit. But eventually they did...

I think the VW/Audi lot will do it sometime, perhaps they could revive the Auto Union brand to take on Merc. It was rumoured a couple of years ago that they had a V10 on a test bed. Then of course there's Lambo brand?

Only other BIG firm not there is GM. Problem they'd have is they'd have to rebadge the damn things at almost every race, to fit each country's own GM brand! We got close when GM had something to do with Lamborghini, or am i getting confused with Chryler?

Snrub · 8 Jul 2004, 17:26 (Ref:1030474)

Ford made $495M in profit last year.
http://www.courier-journal.com/busin...rd23-5649.html
Toyota $10B
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...e_20040512.htm
Honda $4.3B
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...04-289991.html
VW $3.2B
http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/02/18/volkswagen.reut/

F1 is a big expense even for Toyota. Shareholders don't want their money ****ed away on pointless ventures.

Mr A Pie · 8 Jul 2004, 17:29 (Ref:1030477)

They will not use the Lambo Brand.... It's about selling and competing with BM, Merc, Toyota and Jag, following these guys up from LM, building on what thay have had historically..
Your point on GM is interesting... but 85% of GM cars are sold in the states... where F1 is fairly insignificant. branding a "Chevy" F1 does not work with us Europeans...and their Vauxhall/Opel brand is not in the same league.

ASCII Man · 8 Jul 2004, 17:31 (Ref:1030479)

Quote:

Originally posted by chunterer
We got close when GM had something to do with Lamborghini, or am i getting confused with Chryler?

That was a V12 Chrysler-Lamborghini, IIRC I think they supplied Minardi and some other team in the early 90's...

Mr A Pie · 8 Jul 2004, 17:33 (Ref:1030482)

You'll find this is net .....not gross.... look at what Toyota are ploughing back in.... your figures dont add up!

VAG 87Bln E in Car sales

Super Tourer · 8 Jul 2004, 17:45 (Ref:1030491)

A potted history....

1987 - Chrysler bought Lamborghini.

In 1989 the Larrouse teams ran the Lambo V12's, with Alliot in one car and Comas (IIRC) in the other.

In 1990 - Lotus ran Lamborghini engines and larrouse continued with them, running Bernard and Suzuki.

1991 - Ligier ran them.

1992 - Larrouse and Minardi.

1993 - Larrouse still ran the engines, but Chrysler planned to drop the Lambo branding for 1994 and did a deal with McLaren for them to test engines with a view to running them in 1994 . McLaren built a test hack for Chrysler, tested by both Hakkinen and Senna, but Ron decided to go with Peugeot instead, leaving Chrysler no where to go, subsequently pulling out of F1.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/eng-lambo.html

alesi95 · 8 Jul 2004, 18:04 (Ref:1030521)

Its looks like Volkswagon is stuck on the fence alongside General Motors. Too many brands = 0 commitment.

JAG · 8 Jul 2004, 18:17 (Ref:1030533)

F1 needs LESS manufactuers not more.

The sport is on a path of self distruction at the moment with most manufactuers not getting anywhere near value for money out of their F1 program.

Just look at Jaguar, an unmitigated disaster if ever there was one. The brand image is shot to pieces and the F1 team is a joke. How different it was when they were competing at the head of the field in sportscar racing.

Look at Toyota. As someone put it earlier, are they actually racing. you wouldn't think so considering the coverage they have recieved. They've probably gained more publicity from signing R Schumacher than from their racing exploits.

Even Renault, with their relative success, have to fight to stay in F1 with a new sceptical CEO about to take charge.

VAG can compete at LM/LMES/ALMS with the Audi brand in LMP1 and Lamborghini in GTS for a fraction of the cost of even a modest F1 budget.

F1 needs to lose a couple of manufactuer teams, and get back to proffessional race teams, with works/customer engine programs.

Manufactuers will not up put for much longer being trounced by Ferrari, never mind those manufactuers who cannot even get regular podiums.