World Touring Cars not us

[stoned pony]

Geez, just when I was getting comfortable with every bloke and his dog (read: Bill Woods and the C10 commentary team)telling me that V8 Supercars were the best, toughest, sedan racing class in the world the FIA goes and names the European Touring Car Championship as the role model for next year's World Touring Car Championship.
Does that mean our championship might not be as good as C10 and TC keep telling us?

[Joe5619]

The V8's ARE the best, but are really only got to work in Australia/NZ due to the cars, engines we run etc!!!

[aj_308]

what would the fia know? they tried it before and it didn't work.

[Big Mac]

"What would the fia know? they tried it before and it didnt work."

aj_308 what would your concept for a World Touring Car championship be then? The FIA attempted a WTC close on 20 (yes 20) years ago in a completely different economic climate/time etc. Who’s to say that a WTC cant work? The only way to find out if it can work is if its tried again in present times with the present manufacturer support (Ie BMW, Alfa etc.)

[Falcadore]

Where have I heard these arguements before?

When you say it didn't work, don't you just mean it didn't work for you?

Ok starting fro the first. No V8Supercar is not the best touring car series in the world and it is ridiculous they could claim as such.

The Nextel Cup takes 43 cars and races for 38 weekends a year and has the best attendances of any racing series on the planet, and third best TV audience next to Formula One and MotoGP. Who V8Suprcar can claim to be better than that is just the first step towards propaganda. It is a baseless claim.

Yes this is not the first time there has been a World Touring Car Championship, but just because there was a second does noy mean it wasn't a success. In Europe the race meetings were moderately well attended, there was a close and enthusiastic battle between Ford and BMW. It drew a record crowd to Bathurst, despite the rain which fell on the track on race day. The series saw entries from Ford, BMW, Holden, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota and more.

The disputes of vehicle eligibility were a side issue to the series success. As was the series sudden collapse. What caused the collapse was when the FIA took over the running of the series mid year and immediately announced a regulation change to Bernie Ecclestone's 'silouhette' regulations which the manufacturers refused to support and only one car was ever built (that Alfa Romeo scared the bejeeses out of Riccardo Patrese at its only test session). Behind the scenes politiking runed the chances of a 1988 series going ahead.

It could be argued the Ecclestone created this situation in order to dilute manufacturer interest in a global touring car series when those manufacturers 'should' have been in Formula One.

The Bathurst Eggenberger Sierra incident was just one of thousands of disqualifications over the decades, and the series could have survived it no hassles at all.

The new World Touring Car Championship series is an appropriate tag for a series intending to race in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and South America. It doesn't need an Australian stop over to be a true World Championship. I think we need to get over ourselves a little here.

[stoned pony]

Agreed, Falcadore, there is no reason why such a series cannot work and from memory you are right, Bernie Ecclestone did not like the possible threat WTCs posed to F1 and helped engineer its demise.
I would actually like to see premier race meetings with more than two manufacturers represented. Even NASCAR types can count to more than two!

[Peregrine]

A true "World Championship" should ideally visit all continents including Antarctica (no Phillip Island is not Antarctica despite sharing similar weather) hence there is no such thing !!

[prn 31]

Graet post Falcodore, never a truer word spoken.

I'm not a NASCAR fan, but you can't deny its success, its overtaken single seater racing as the number one category in the States, just like touring cars (long before V8Supercars) did the same here.

If Bernie gave the WTCC a fair innings back in 87/88 who knows where we would be now - we certainly wouldn't have seven manufacturers in F1.

Now that these manufacturers are locked into F1, I guess Bernie couldn't care less about a WTCC. It was different back in 87 ....

[DarthFalcon]

Originally posted by Joe5619
The V8's ARE the best, but are really only got to work in Australia/NZ due to the cars, engines we run etc!!!

Joe, check your name badge doesn't say TC

A little 13 round, 2 make series probably isn't the best one to model a WTCC on...

[rdmdog]

Originally posted by Falcadore
The disputes of vehicle eligibility were a side issue to the series success.
....
Behind the scenes politiking runed the chances of a 1988 series going ahead.
....
It could be argued the Ecclestone created this situation in order to dilute manufacturer interest in a global touring car series when those manufacturers 'should' have been in Formula One.

Wake up, Group A in Europe was an opportunity for anyone to see how far they could go before getting caught, some of them did. Of course Bernie saw the potential and nipped it in the bud, similar to his treatment of rallying when it gets threatening.

If you counted the viewers tyhe same way F1 did, then everyone in the Southern Hemisphere watches every V8 race twice.

Who cares, we have the best track, unfortunately it dosent get enough use

[Falcadore]

rdmdog: Maybe you were referring to FIA TV audience figures, but I wasn't.

For example: RTL Germany had 11 million peak viewers for Sunday's British GP, and averaged for the race 9.75 million, 50.5% market share. This is up significantly over last year's race which saw 8,24 million/46.2 Share viewers tuned in. In Italy Rai Uno had 10.8 million people watching with 65.5% share.

Those are calculated the same way Australian television ratings are. Those are bigger figures per capita than State of Origin Rugby League gets in Brisbane, which is Brisbane's biggest TV event. In Italy's case a lot bigger.

As for scruitineering issues as stated above, they were a side issue to the success of the series. The European Touring Car Championship, on which the WTCC had been based, continued for a few years after the WTCC up until the death of Group A, which in Europe largely came about through a stagnation in the category. Godzillas never raced in Europe in Group A form (they did in Group N though, David Brabham winning Spa 24 Hour in 1991 in one). Interest in creating cars that could match the ageing Ford Sierra turbos was not high, and BMW's focus with M3s wavered as DTM started to drift and then break from Group A entirely.

Super Touring exploded on the scene in the early 90's and that killed Group A completely.

[aj_308]

falcadore, thats rubbish, why dont we call v8 supercars a world championship then? logic says if its a world championship, then you visit all the continents. all the ones with racetracks anyway.

[TSR]

Poor Australia misses out again because we run the v8supertaxi series, oh well TC got what he wanted his own little series were the rest of the world will have a WORLDWIDE series...
TC B******t NIL
WTC 1

That my opion
I am Darren Hinch
No I am not D'oh

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by aj_308
falcadore, thats rubbish, why dont we call v8 supercars a world championship then? logic says if its a world championship, then you visit all the continents. all the ones with racetracks anyway.

I notice you apply that qualifier on the end - 'the ones with racetracks' how many more exceptions are you going to make to your logic?

If we apply logic in that an even percatage of the world population should get to be able to watch a world championship then nine of the 18 rounds would be held in China, and another four in India.

Visiting all continents still doesn't neccesaarily include Australia as there is debate over whether Australia is a continent or a really big island. Its where the island continent comes from.

Yes its splitting hairs, but I didn't split them first. I'm merely responding in kind.

Remember, the Formula One World Championship existed for 35 years before visiting Australia. So does every world championship prior to 85, including all four won by Australians, then not count?

[D.R.T.]

Can you really call the taxi's touring cars. A far stretch of the imagination there.

DTM is currently the best touring car class in the world bar none, but they really aren't touring either, so I guess that leaves the ETCC.

[Wheels]

It would be great to see a WTCC if it could be guaranteed that a 2ltr FrntWD family car is competitive with a 5.7 sports coupe. Both may be touted as touring cars but where is the equality? Somebody come up with a formula to equalise them and I might be interested.

[Falcadore]

Since when has the Monaro been considered a touring car?

In Britain its condiered a sports car, and races as such. Apples and oranges.

[Teretonga]

aj 308
The FIA tried it and it did work but Bernie killed it because of fears it would be more popular than his blessed F1!

[Dingo]

Just about every championship mentioned that imploded did so because in the end, greed and self-interest will always triumph over the greater good.

[Mark Webber]

Originally posted by D.R.T.
Can you really call the taxi's touring cars. A far stretch of the imagination there.

DTM is currently the best touring car class in the world bar none, but they really aren't touring either, so I guess that leaves the ETCC.

what about JTCC? they must rate up there!

IMHO the WTCC is a great idea I just wish they would race down here at least once

ANYTHING'S got to be better than the Taxi's

[Mattracer]

I guess it's bombers on Saturday nights then?

[aj_308]

dont get me wrong, i think it would be great, and falcadore, by that i meant antartica. these type of multiple manufacturer championships need total commitment, history shows most go full on for a bit, then quit. i dont want to see that.

[Robert Ryan]

History is not on the side of the new WTCC, nor economics for that matter. They do not have the following or sponsorship to make it work.

[racer69]

Without running a national championship to Super 2000 regulations, anyone thinking of Australia hosting a round of 'new-age' WTCC is dreaming.

No-one would be prepared to back a round of the series for the right money. If we had a strong national series though, we get the same situation as 1987.

The only reason Australia got a round in 1987 (of course two as it turned out) is because we had a strong national championship to Group A regulations and had the interest and car numbers to fill the grid. New Zealand already had the International Wellington street race (which Australian entries provided high grid numbers) and the promotoers (PROMO) were prepared to pay big bucks for top imports (in addition the the FIA registered entries). The only other 'non-Europe' event that year was Fuji in Japan, and of course Japan had a strong Group A series with lovcal manufacturers just getting up to speed in Group A.

The original 1987 series [B]did[/i] work. The grids were always big, crowds at the European rounds were as big as they ever were at a pre-1987 ETCC round (as big doesn't mean huge), the manufacturers were very interested prior to Bernie stepping in, and even afterwards, the Japanese were still looking to enter (as shown by the Nissan factory entry in the 1988 ETCC)

The 2005 WTCC is completely different though. Sprint races, parity (as opposed to class) racing and the same cars at each round.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
History is not on the side of the new WTCC, nor economics for that matter. They do not have the following or sponsorship to make it work.

DOesn't have to. Its not exactly a stand alone category. It will be travelling with the FIA GT series. Its merely an extension of the existing series to some more distant venues, for twhich the 'European Touring Car Championship' will no longer be an approprtiate moniker.

I think many people are confusing the series ambitions with the much loftier goals of the 1987 series.