Perpetual Motion Machines

[Sparky]

Perpetual Motion. The idea that energy can be self supporting. Many have tried, and failed, to find the answer.
Got any ideas? Refuse to believe it can't be done? No such thing as a free lunch? (Well there is, but I don't like hair in my Pizza, thanks!)

I was asked again today if I thought PMM were possible. I really can't see it, but I'm open to educated persuasion.

A motor driving a generator won't work; The law of diminishing returns. You'd need a big motor to drive the generator. A generator big enough to supply the big motor with enough voltage, etc, etc. Catch 22.

Perpetual motion? Magnets? Gravity? Heat transfer?

Have you got any crazy (but realistically feasible) ideas for such an energy device? The individual that comes up with this 'Holy Grail' will either be rich beyond their wildest dreams, or assasinated by Powergen!

[This message has been edited by Sparky (edited 06 December 1999).]

[Gerard]

I'm sorry Sparky, but Perpetual Motion Machines will probably never happen.
Although there are thousands of patents about PMM's, no one has ever delivered proof of a working machine.
If you ask yourself wat a PMM is, you could say 'a machine that creates its own energy'.
Or, as the scientific description sounds 'perpetual motion involves any device or project which violates the first and second law of thermodynamics'.
Next question is 'can these laws of thermodynamics be violated?'
First of all, you have to know these laws.
The first law of thermodynamics is 'if the amount of energy in the system itself remains constant, then the amount of energy which leaves the system must equal the amount of energy which enters it over time.'
The second law of thermodynamics is 'heat energy cannot spontaneously flow from a cold object to a warm one.'
In my opinion you cannot violate these laws.
No one has ever succeeded in it, but who knows. There was a time when people believed the earth was flat and that airplanes would never fly.
And you're right, the person that invents a PMM which actually works, probably would become richer than Billy Gates.

Gerard.

[Sparky]

You're right Gerard. As I said, I really can't see it happenning either, but I'll listen intently to all proposals.

I suspect the only possible way is the illusion of perpetual motion, but with a natural energy source giving the gizmo a nudge every so often. Gravity, magnetism etc. Something that's active but subtle.

It's the only way, surely...?

[KC]

I doubt that a PPM will ever be devised. There is always some sort of countering force involved that eventually degrades the performance until it stops. Be it gravity, aero drag, friction, etc. Aero drag can be removed by inducing a vacuum and friction can be ovcercome by using superconducting bearings, but gravity will always be present on our planet or even our solar system.

[Invader]

If you consider the way deep space probes are launched and then use the gravitational pull of a planet or other large astral body to regain speed and propel themselves onward to the next, I guess that's as far as you'd want to go....but, it still needs a big kick up the butt to get it going in the first place.
Solar powered opposed electro-magnets to drive a vehicle along is probably the most energy efficient form of propulsion.
There I go talking bottox again
Could the rotation of the Earth or the movement of the tidal seas be loosely described as perpetual motion, or to go back to my first point, maybe Halley's comet.
Anyway back to the original topic.....NO!

[TimD]

Sorry if I'm ruining a very serious discussion here, but I should mention the perpetual motion device postulated by New Scientist.

The buttered cat array.

The theory states that it is well known that a falling cat will always land on its feet. Similarly a dropped slice of buttered toast will always land buttered side down, according to the third law of sod.

Thus, it is argued, if a slice of buttered toast is strapped to the back of a cat which is then dropped from a great height, natural laws of observed physics state that neither the cat or the toast will be able to make contact with the floor, because of their own individual law of physics, and will thus remain fixed in mid-air, spinning, as the two forces try to counteract each other.

It is further noted that a striking similarity in eye witness reports of UFOs is the consistent observation of a soft, low pitched humming noise.

This is surely the sound of the purring of the thousands of buttered cats required to keep an interstellar spacecraft from succumbing to the force of gravity.

[Invader]

Mmmm....Nice!

[Diabando]

This would not be an educated answer - merely one pulled from my less than educated brain...

I think about the world 100 years ago..and how far we have come with technology...it dont stop here... there is so much more to be invented..its just a matter or formula...I for one cant wait to see what happens...the mere fact that some people are already thinking about Perpetual Motion - means that at some stage - something will come of it...maybe not now...maybe in another 100 years...who knows...but never say never *S*

BTW: Happy New Year!!

Cheers!!

[Peter Mallett]

Dino,

Welcome back. Where've u been dude?

Also. Where's Sparky?

[Warwick]

Ah yes but i believe the butter side down law is related the cost of the floor covering,the more the floor covering costs, the higher the chance of the toast landing butterside down,those ufo's must have some pretty pricey floor coverings.

[Dino IV]

So that explains the noise coming out of my car.
It's just the horizontal variant of the buttered cats theory; 100 buttered toasts in front of 100 hungry cats makes for a nice 0-60 mph

Brings a whole new meaning to a 'Jaguar', doesn't it?

[DAVID PATERSON]

He fell into a DGH

[Robin Plummer]

Sparky, I have tried to email you re: Autograss in Essex. But your email address seems to not work, has it changed? If not can you help me with this below. Sorry it's not for this topic!

I am looking to enter Autograss racing in Class 2. I live in Chelmsford, Essex and would like to join the Concord club, but I do not know how too. Who do I contact etc. I need a copy of the rules as I am undecided whether to buy a car or make one. Do you know any one who has any for sale?

Where are the race meetings held? What sort of costs are involved etc? (You can tell I have never done this before!)

Thanks.

[Neil C]

The law of conservation of energy (or matter, for that matter ), states that energy can neither be created or destroyed.

Therefore, if you beleive there is an infinite amount of energy in the universe, then PM is possible. If, however, there is a finite amount, eventually you will run out of energy and your machine will stop.