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8 Apr 2003, 19:57 (Ref:563140)
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#1 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
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Drivers who have struggled in F1 having shown genuine promise in lower formulae
Three suggestions for starters:
Jan Magnussen - won a record number of British F3 wins in one season (1994). Yet struggled with Stewart in F1 and ended up being sacked by the same team who described him as the 'next Senna' a few years previously. Tarso Marques - another who struggled in F1. Yet (still only a teenager) he won the 1995 Estoril F3000 race from the pole and also started on pole in Pau that year. Ricardo Rosset - in 1996 he never outqualified Verstappen at Arrows and in 1998 failed to qualify for several races with Tyrrell. Yet in 1995 he won his first ever F3000 race from the pole (Silverstone), won a second race at Enna and finished second to Vincenzo Sospiri in the championship. The Autocourse review that year stated that Rosset was ready for F1 having nothing left to prove in F3000. |
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__________________
"You looked after that famous bank robber, didn't you? His picture was in all the papers." "It was when he escaped" 
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8 Apr 2003, 20:17 (Ref:563174)
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#2 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 374
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Only recently found out about this chap (his Nephew posts on another Forum).
Teddy Pilette - European F5000 champion in 73 and 75 but never made it in F1. BRM in ultra decline didn't help. |
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__________________
"If you can leave black marks from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn, then you have enough horsepower." --Mark Donohue Colin McRae 1968-2007
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8 Apr 2003, 20:20 (Ref:563185)
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#3 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,936
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Alex Zanardi. Fantastic in CART, and quite impressive with Lotus... But his season with Williams was a nightmare!
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__________________
"Put a ****ing wheel on there! Let me go out again!" -Gilles Villeneuve, Zandvoort, 1979
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8 Apr 2003, 20:28 (Ref:563198)
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#4 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 6,635
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Zanardi could drive in Touring, I find difficult see again him in a Formula car.
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8 Apr 2003, 22:49 (Ref:563392)
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#5 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,936
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Well, _now_... I meant in '99. I'm absolutely confident we'll see him with a GTS victory at LeMans in a few seasons.
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__________________
"Put a ****ing wheel on there! Let me go out again!" -Gilles Villeneuve, Zandvoort, 1979
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9 Apr 2003, 00:22 (Ref:563427)
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#6 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,294
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Zanardi is the name that would certainly come to mind concerning recent drivers. The way he blitzed the field in CART for two seasons spoke volumes about his talent, but once in that Williams, the spark was gone. He just couldn't get to grips with the cars and was just bloody unlucky all season.
A name mentioned in a post above was Vincenzo Sospiri. There is a guy who just never got a chance to impress. |
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__________________
Sunderland Til I Die!
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9 Apr 2003, 01:52 (Ref:563453)
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#7 | ||
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Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,212
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Some F2 & F3 Champions who never cut it in F1
J.J. LEHTO Mauricio GUGELMIN Johnny DUMFRIES Chico SERRA Steven SOUTH Derek DALY Bruno GIACOMELLI Rupert KEEGAN Brian HENTON Rikky von OPEL Dave WALKER Tony TRIMMER Erik COMAS Stefano MODENA Christian DANNER Jonathan PALMER Geoff LEES Pierluigi MARTINI Mauro BALDI Jan LAMMERS Piercarlo GHINZANI Larry PERKINS Oscar LARRAURI Teddy Pilette can be forgiven,even MS couldn't have put that BRM on the last row of the grid,it was dreadful. |
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9 Apr 2003, 02:16 (Ref:563466)
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#8 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 28
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Hmmm. Can't help but comment on some of these drivers...
J.J. LEHTO Disagree. 3rd at San Marino in 1991 (in a Dallara!) Mauricio GUGELMIN Ditto. Almost won in France in 1990 Johnny DUMFRIES A goer who was handcuffed by Senna @ Lotus Chico SERRA Agree Steven SOUTH Ditto but his career was cut short by a huge accident Derek DALY Should have won at Monaco in 1982 Bruno GIACOMELLI Agree Rupert KEEGAN Agree Brian HENTON Likewise Rikky von OPEL Rich kid Dave WALKER Aussie whose talent was stifled by Lotus's utter dedication to Emmo Tony TRIMMER Agree Erik COMAS Agree Stefano MODENA Italian crazy Christian DANNER Agree Jonathan PALMER Never did nothing Geoff LEES Agree Pierluigi MARTINI Always better than his cars Mauro BALDI Agree Jan LAMMERS Over rated but the Dutch fans tend to do that with their drivers Piercarlo GHINZANI Agree Larry PERKINS Always drove **** heaps while the paying drivers in the team got the good hardware Oscar LARRAURI Most interesting thing about him was his nickname, Poppy |
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Lunch? Hell yeah!
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9 Apr 2003, 02:27 (Ref:563472)
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#9 | ||
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 12,053
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Ivan Capelli could be thrown in there as well , he did finished 2nd once but once he got to ferarri his career went head first into a gravel trap quicker than Pizzonia on a race weekend.
Gabriele Tarquini , very quick but never had a great car in F1. David Brabham , very quick and a great driver just never got the chance. theres probably loads of others as well. |
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__________________
In Loving memory of Peter Brock I hate it when im driving in a straight line & Seb Vettel runs into me GO THE MIGHTY HAWKS !!!!
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9 Apr 2003, 10:13 (Ref:563744)
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#10 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,341
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I don't know how many of F3000 champions came to F1, but I know that all of them together have 3 (three) victories in F1 (Alesi, Panis, Montoya).
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__________________
Let it be
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9 Apr 2003, 10:23 (Ref:563752)
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#11 | ||
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Llama Assassin and Sheep Botherer
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,212
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F3000 Champions
2002 Sebastien BOURDAIS 2001 Justin WILSON 2000 Bruno JUNQUEIRA 1999 Nick HEIDFELD 1998 Juan Pablo MONTOYA 1997 Ricardo ZONTA 1996 Jorg MULLER 1995 Vincenzo SOSPIRI 1994 Jean-Christophe BOULLION 1993 Olivier PANIS 1992 Luca BADOER 1991 Christian FITTIPALDI 1990 Erik COMAS 1989 Jean ALESI 1988 Roberto MORENO 1987 Stefano MODENA 1986 Ivan CAPELLI 1985 Christian DANNER |
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9 Apr 2003, 11:32 (Ref:563809)
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#12 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 13,000
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From the top:
Bourdais: Looks like he could make ti to F1 in eyars to come, judging by his early apce in CART Wilson: Certainly has the potential, but needs the right hardware Junquiera: Ha sbeen hit&miss in CART but certainly could still find his way to F1 Heidfeld: So far jsut a midfield talent, but his chance hasn't compeltely gone yet, he's an outside candidate to join Williams in 2004. Montoya: Should be many more wins to come, but we said that about Alesi Zonta: Didn't get a fair chance at BAR but might find his way back through testing for Toyota, although it's unlikely Muller: Now in Touring Car racing, sngle seater hopes in oblivion - 1996 was quite a poor field, with guys liek Kenny Brack at the front Sospiri: Had no hope of doing anything in the Lola JCB: Another whio never got a regualr chance, did okay while at Sauber but enver caught anyone's eye for a full-season. Would've been upper midfield at best Panis: Steady but not ultra-fast, got one undeserved win but won't repeat barring a fluke Badoer: Perhaps the ultimate unsung hero of modern F1. Did superbly when racing, and has been crucial to Ferrari's success Fitipaldi: Not good enough, quite frankly, and hogged that Newman-Haas seat in CART for far too long. Comas: Not good enough, showed little at either Ligier or Larrousse Alesi: Perhaps the best of the bunch, but made poor career decisions and was unlucky on numerous occasions Moreno: Saddled with a succession of useless cars, his form in CART suggests that he lacks the spark to be a winner but could've been a regualr point-scorer Modena: Had a couple of good runs, but fell apart at Jordan. Hard to rate objectively Capelli: Adrian Newey's cars made him look better than he was. The spell at Ferrari well and truly shwoed him up Danner: I think we can only assume that the first season didn't have too many future stars on the grid. Useless in F1, useless in CART. Quite a mixed bag, as you can see, reinforcing the notion that the best drivers don't need F3000, and that it doesn't really show driver skill especially well. You can't place Badoer and Panis ahead of Coulthard and Barrichello on ability, even though they beat them. |
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9 Apr 2003, 16:55 (Ref:564154)
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#13 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,409
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What about Michael Andretti?
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9 Apr 2003, 19:48 (Ref:564392)
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#14 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 403
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Definitely Zanardi.
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9 Apr 2003, 20:16 (Ref:564438)
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#15 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,936
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Quote:
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__________________
"Put a ****ing wheel on there! Let me go out again!" -Gilles Villeneuve, Zandvoort, 1979
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10 Apr 2003, 06:51 (Ref:564785)
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#16 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,512
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Quote:
F1manoz!!! Poor Zanardi had to drive THE WORST WILLIAMS EVER!!! Even MS or Senna would have had a bad season in such a carriage |
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__________________
You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly P.Simon
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10 Apr 2003, 10:05 (Ref:564909)
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#17 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 413
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Mansell! Left F1 to become American billy cart champion
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__________________
Let no way be the way - let no limitation be the limitation! The late great Bruce Lee
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10 Apr 2003, 10:12 (Ref:564911)
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#18 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,153
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Ralf Schumacher almost won in that Williams if it wasn't for a flat tire and was consistently scoring points in it, not to mention the occasional podium.
Zanardi was simply too aggressive to be a F1 driver. If there ever was a guy who got screwed it was Roberto Moreno. Last edited by corkholio; 10 Apr 2003 at 10:13. |
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10 Apr 2003, 12:12 (Ref:564993)
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#19 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 290
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Why has no one mentioned Alan McNish?
Also Chris Amon, should have been world champ! |
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__________________
Help! Anything above is my own opinion as a private individual, not linked in any way to anything else I may be involved with.
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10 Apr 2003, 12:14 (Ref:564997)
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#20 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,071
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Roberto Moreno is a great choice.
- 3 times AusGP Winner (Non-Championship, but against good fields) - F3000 Champion - Very Handy in Champ Car Shame he got shafted by Benetton 
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__________________
Don't let manufacturers ruin F1. RIP Tyrrell, Arrows, Prost, Minardi, Jordan.
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11 Apr 2003, 09:52 (Ref:566036)
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#21 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
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Quote:
I disagree! Panis is a very likeable bloke and he is very quick and showed great skill in the Ligier and Prost. He deserved his win at Monaco! |
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11 Apr 2003, 11:50 (Ref:566173)
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#22 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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__________________
I can't drive 55.
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12 Apr 2003, 08:37 (Ref:567045)
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#23 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,370
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I think he's on 41 or 42 CART victories, with only Mario (54) and AJ Foyt ahead, on 67.
Up until he left CART for IRL, he was the winningest active driver in the series. |
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__________________
Holden- How One Legendary Driver Earned Nine Permanent circuits- the life blood of motorsport
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12 Apr 2003, 10:41 (Ref:567128)
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#24 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,979
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Thierry Boutsen maybe?
Jacky Ickx? Ummm... Ortelli? Last edited by ASCII Man; 12 Apr 2003 at 10:43. |
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12 Apr 2003, 11:06 (Ref:567150)
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#25 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
Another driver who has dominated in lower formulae and struggled in F1 is Pedro de la Rosa though (unlike Rosset and Marques) he hasn't really looked out of his depth. Recall that he ran third in Austria in 2000 and should have finished higher than 6th next time out in Hockenheim. Ultimately though he raced in F1 for 4 years (almost) with only one top 5 finish to show for it. In 1995 Pedro dominated the Japanese F3 championship, then he dominated Formula Nippon in 1997. |
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__________________
"You looked after that famous bank robber, didn't you? His picture was in all the papers." "It was when he escaped"
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