Marshals Grading is a farce !

[Baldy Man]

Does anyone else feel that the marshals grading system does not work ? When there are some people who very quickly achieve Incident Officer (red badge) and clearly have less experience than some trainee's who cannot be bothered to grade because they feel it is not worth the hassle ?
One idea around this may be to have an apprenticeship/time served style for grading ?
What do you all think ?

[Dave Brand]

The current grading system may not be perfect but, in my opinion, it works reasonably well.

I believe that all trainees should be working towards a green badge. In any new 'job' it is important not only to learn the job but to have a measure of how well the job is being learnt. By not submitting his/her card for upgrade, a trainee is denying himself/herself this valuable yardstick.

The grading system allows signatures to be given only for satisfactory performance duty. This means handling incidents in a competent manner under the eyes of an examining observer; signatures will not (or should not!) be given if there have been no incidents, or if the trainee has not performed satisfactorily.

The decision whether or not to go for an upgrade rests with the individual. However, anyone who doesn't want the 'hassle' should examine their motives.....lack of confidence, lack of ability, laziness? There's not really much hassle in handing a card to an XO & then doing a normal day's marshalling, is there?

If by an 'apprenticeship/time served' system you mean that grading should just be based on number of meetings attended, my answer would be an emphatic NO! You learn nothing by just standing watching the racing, enjoyable as that is. The current system requires that anyone wanting an upgrade must demonstrate his/her ability to do the job. I'm always wary of people who claim to be 'experienced' with nothing to back up their claimed abilities. To quote an old saying, some people have 25 years' experience, some have one year's experience repeated 25 times. The grading system not only helps people reach an acceptable level of confidence, it also tells the people who work with them that they have reached that level of competence.

By the way, the red badge denotes the incident marshal grade; the incident officer grade is denoted by a red/black badge.

[Baldy Man]

I think your fundamental outlook on marshalling is completely different to a significant number of marshals! Most of the marshals which I speak to do NOT regard marshalling as a 'job', but as a hobby. They tend to have somewhat busy jobs from Monday to Friday and go marshalling at weekends to wind down and get away from that 'job' mentality. And I would hypothesise the grading system is one reason why the number of marshals may be dwindling ?

I do agree with a lot of the points that you make - in theory, however in practice it does not work like that, people do get signatures when they do nothing, and other xo's will hardly ever give signatures.
Other points are that "ambitious" marshals know which posts tend to have xo's and plenty of incidents - and tend to collect signatures at an artificially rapid rate - THIS IS A FACT.

I am intersted if other marshals in the wider world out there feel the same way, and if other people would change the system, what would they do ?

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Baldy Man
I think your fundamental outlook on marshalling is completely different to a significant number of marshals! Most of the marshals which I speak to do NOT regard marshalling as a 'job', but as a hobby.

I think you've missed the reason why I put 'job' in inverted commas. Marshalling is, for all of us, a hobby. We must, however, face the fact that it is a potentially dangerous, even fatal, hobby. For this reason I believe that, hobby, voluntary or not, we must take a professional approach to marshalling; fortunately, most of the people I've marshalled with take a pride in the way they do the job. Some may have a slapdash, lackadaisical attitude to marshalling; they have the right to that - I just don't want them on post with me! Maybe I am unusual - I like to do things properly & professionally.

And I would hypothesise the grading system is one reason why the number of marshals may be dwindling ?

Maybe, but I think not. Of all the problems discussed on post, I can't ever remember anyone bringing up grading & expressing dissatisfaction with the grading scheme. Lack of lunch breaks, no access to toilets, the weather, drivers who ignore yellow flags, are more common subjects when the whingeing starts.

I do agree with a lot of the points that you make - in theory, however in practice it does not work like that, people do get signatures when they do nothing, and other xo's will hardly ever give signatures.

A couple of weeks ago I was on post with the BMMC's national training officer. He is aware of the variability between XOs & that at some circuits signatures are too easily obtained & is trying to address the problem.

Other points are that "ambitious" marshals know which posts tend to have xo's and plenty of incidents - and tend to collect signatures at an artificially rapid rate - THIS IS A FACT.

How do you define 'artificially rapid'? The requirement for an upgrade is ten signatures for satisfactory performance of the specified duty; time is irrelevant. I got my green badge in around six months, mainly because I did a lot of meetings; I know other people who have taken two years or more - there is nothing to indicate that either of us is better than the other because of this.

I am intersted if other marshals in the wider world out there feel the same way, and if other people would change the system, what would they do ?

Response so far suggests that it isn't a big problem......

[Stephen Green]

I must say Baldy that I agree with Dave's comments. Those marshals who do more meetings in a season are bound to 'climb the ladder' that much sooner than others. I would agree that there is probably a shortage of Examining Observers at many circuits and it is something the BMMC are trying to redress. One problem is the lack of marshals willing to become Observers. I had to have my arm 'twisted' to make the break from IO to Observer and even now sometimes regret the move.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by Baldy Man

Other points are that "ambitious" marshals know which posts tend to have xo's and plenty of incidents - and tend to collect signatures at an artificially rapid rate - THIS IS A FACT.

Baldy Man where do you do your marshalling? Because as far as I know at Oulton this is virtually impossible. Posts are allocated on the day - and I believe that requests made in advance of race day for a particular post will be declined.

Also, I don't know about other circuits, but all marshals, no matter what their grade is, are assigned to a post on the day.

[neilwaynesmith]

It IS possible to request a post with an X/O, I have seen this done, and indeed recommended this to a guy I was on post with one Friday. He was a course marshal, looking to upgrade and only needed a couple of signatures, so I suggested he have a word at sign-on, he got re-allocated, and after two days of graft, got the sig's he needed.

You tend to find that the same people do the sign-on week after week, so any overeager-beaver would be remembered.

In spite of this, I agree that some form of restraint is needed, we all want to get rid of the white badge ASAP, but there is a right way, and a wrong way.

Perhaps it ought to be that trainees have to get an attendance signature for EVERY DAY they marshal? This way an X/O could have more information to make the proper assessment?

Just a hurried thought...

[serverbrainfailure]

what worries me are those few (and they are a small number) of marshals who on paper are "experienced" yet you would not wish upon anyone, as they are frankly a danger to their collegues, yet they still manage to get through the net...

[neilwaynesmith]

Chris, you following my replies again?

Every time I mention that weekend!.....

[serverbrainfailure]

am just following you generally - look in the mirror more often
:-) ... kidding

[neilwaynesmith]

Originally posted by serverbrainfailure
am just following you generally - look in the mirror more often
:-) ... kidding

Didn't realise your car had a blue flashing light....

[Stoowert]

I think the grading system is, like most things in this sport, set up & run for the MSA & racing clubs. It saves them to actually find out how good their marshals are! It's there, in those wonderful plastic wallets! Whereas the system does seem to work at the lower, earlier ranks, I think the big problem is higher up. I think there should be regular exams for "X"'s to take. Lets say once a year. Some are good marshals much are woefully short on the coaching/man management front. Not only that but some have gained the dizzy heights of Black X and think "That's it, I've made it!" and let their standards slip. When I was training to be an observer at Brands, a black X spent the entire day telling me what great observer he was, missing every incident! This resulted in ME getting a *******ing from race control!Grr! Not only that but I have to remember to take my licence with me to race meetings AND have it to hand when I sign on. Not easy, when wearing several layers of motorcycle gear!
In defence of our chiefs, at signing-on it's their primary task to ensure the track is manned in a safe manner and if an "ambitious" maeshal wants to go to a "hot spot" it's so easy to allocate him/her there as the chief has one less problem to worry about!
Steve: I was talked into being an observer - only to be told I couldn't without a year as IO! I said "fine, I'll stay flagging!" Next thing I know is they've changed the rules! Oh well!

[rick vaux]

Must admit to getting sigs quickly when i first started, call me eager to get the red badge.
As a trainee, i attended a lot more incidents than i do now.
I think the system works well. If you are willing to put the hours in to start with, and you can marshal to the standard required, then why not be rewarded with an upgrade when you have enough sigs.
On the other hand, i have seen some rather poor marshalling from I/Os as well as red/fire marshals...
I still believe there is the old fashioned law of if your face fits....cos i have seen it...Again does this come down to reward though?
We all know if we have done our job to the best of our ability, and that to me is what counts in the end.
I have been more than happy to look after a trainee in the past, and to pass on my invaluable knowledge
If they could go away with having learn`t at least something from their time with me, then i have helped them.
Problems may come about, when a marshal has gained enough sigs in a very short space of time, not dealt with anything major and finds himself either with another less experienced marshal and a big incident, thats when we may have a problem with the system....

[Baldy Man]

I may be a traditionalist, but as Dave said, he graduated to green after 6 months, frankly I think that is exactly one of the things which is wrong with the grading system. 6 Months is not long enough for good behavioural practices to sink in.
My suggestion would be to have minimum 12 months time to graduate to green, this ensures that the trainee has the chance to see racing across spring, summer and autumnal weather conditions (or just August - only kidding!!)
I would also have a system where the upgrading card is specific to each circuit - a green badge at Oulton should not count for the same experience when marshalling a different circuit. Also that the trainee should get a signature for different risks of corner for example 6 high risk signatures, 6 medium and 2 low -BUT that a good days enjoyment racing is not spoilt by overemphasis on rank.

Again though the big point which I make is that the reason for marshalling is not some kind of warped career progression and obsession with getting up the ladder, but for love of motorsport! The former type of marshals can easily turn off the latter if they and the BMMC don't start soon to understand what some of the 'quieter' marshals want out of the hobby, then this could just be another reason why numbers dwindle.

I am a marshal at Oulton just for info, and also love to stir up a good debate

[cdn girl]

Okay this may sound like a really stupid question but since I don't know I gotta ask.How does your grading system over there?

[KayBee]

Originally posted by Baldy Man
I may be a traditionalist, but as Dave said, he graduated to green after 6 months, frankly I think that is exactly one of the things which is wrong with the grading system. 6 Months is not long enough for good behavioural practices to sink in.
My suggestion would be to have minimum 12 months time to graduate to green, this ensures that the trainee has the chance to see racing across spring, summer and autumnal weather conditions (or just August - only kidding!!)
I would also have a system where the upgrading card is specific to each circuit - a green badge at Oulton should not count for the same experience when marshalling a different circuit. Also that the trainee should get a signature for different risks of corner for example 6 high risk signatures, 6 medium and 2 low -BUT that a good days enjoyment racing is not spoilt by overemphasis on rank.

Again though the big point which I make is that the reason for marshalling is not some kind of warped career progression and obsession with getting up the ladder, but for love of motorsport! The former type of marshals can easily turn off the latter if they and the BMMC don't start soon to understand what some of the 'quieter' marshals want out of the hobby, then this could just be another reason why numbers dwindle.

I am a marshal at Oulton just for info, and also love to stir up a good debate

As an Oulton marshal you will know the methods used for the allocation of the various trackside posts.

I too graded to Green after 6 months or 13 days marhalling and during the 2001 season car marshalled for 19 days in total. I also marshal bikes where I did 15 days where there is no grading scheme.

This year I have completed 26 days of car marshalling and have just placed my card in for upgrading to flag marshal - after being assessed by both the regional chief flag trainer and also the regional training officer and continuously mentored throughout the season. At the end of this season I should have completed 50 days of marshalling in total 26 car and 24 bike - not many by some standards but enough to help with my continued development of track awareness.

I have also worked on post with the National training officer who is working to enforce that all XOs use the same criteria when assessing marshals for differing levels of upgrade e.g. green, red, blue, red/black and black. At one post when I handed my card in for Observation, just as a matter of interest, I asked the XO who checked the Os and XOs? and he couldn't answer my question. Perhaps someone out there could answer me.

As I said before I also marshal for bikes and have had discussions with these colleagues about the car grading scheme. Some think that it is too regimented but others are of the opinion that something similar should be adopted among the bike fraternity.

[Baldy Man]

Okay Okay this is getting silly, Kaybee why do you feel the need to justify yourself ?

Why not get back to the basics of this thread ?
Does anyone else feel that the grading system is turning off some marshals and MORE IMPORTANTLY what would they do about it ?

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by serverbrainfailure
what worries me are those few (and they are a small number) of marshals who on paper are "experienced" yet you would not wish upon anyone, as they are frankly a danger to their collegues, yet they still manage to get through the net...

As somebody recently described them on ten-tenths, 'trainees with red badges'!

[serverbrainfailure]

the specific example i'm thinking of guy is (fortunately) still a green, but seems to think he should be CoC to listen to him. grrr
(those of you on here who know me - know who I am refering to)

[Alan Green]

To be honest, if I was a novice/trainee marshal turning up to have a go I wouldn't give two hoots about the grading system, BMMC, ten-tenths marshals forum, or anything like that. I would only want to get involved with the cars and track activities and enjoy myself (remember, we are meant to be enjoying ourselves out there!)

If I did that a few times and got to know more about the marshals club, gradings, and things like that then maybe I would want senior post officials to say, here you go, thanks for a good days work, there's your signature. Providing that the trainee has worked well to get their dozen signatures and not got them for turning up and watching the racing all day on a post that happens to have an XO, then so what if it takes three months, six months, a year, etc.

Once you have your green badge then you have obviously been around enough to know how to be safe in what you do, how to keep others safe, and the basics of how to respond to on-track events. From there on the work expected is different to get to red or blue badges, so you would expect to have to do more to justify to the XO that you deserve your signatures.

As for circuit to circuit differences it doesn't matter. If you are after upgrading signatures then you should be able to prove that you can do a specific duty regardless of location. If you went to another circuit after only doing one 'home' circuit, a good sign-on officer would recognise this new name to their sheets and allocate them with an experienced official who could advise them of what to look out for, or any circuit 'specialities' or differences.

Time served apprentices? - no, we'd lose all the new blood that's trying to take up marshalling.

Leave the system as it is, as it works well. Baldy Man, if you want experienced 'trainees' to be higher graded, tell them to pull their finger out and get grading rather than feeling they 'can't be bothered' or 'it's too much hassle'.

[Alan Green]

Chris, I'm sure I do know, and it's chief steward and head of the MSA, not CoC!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Baldy Man
I may be a traditionalist, but as Dave said, he graduated to green after 6 months, frankly I think that is exactly one of the things which is wrong with the grading system. 6 Months is not long enough for good behavioural practices to sink in.

That could be seen as a slur both on me & on the XOs who gave me signatures. Let's get one thing straight - a green badge is no big deal; it's just an indication of a basic level of competence. My approach last year was that if there was an XO on post I would put my card in & if I was involved in an incident a& performed to the XO's satisfaction then I'd get a signature. I was lucky in both respects, which meant that I got my green badge in a relatively short time. I then did fifteen more meetings before putting my card in for an upgrade to incident marshal.....read into that what you will.

I would also have a system where the upgrading card is specific to each circuit - a green badge at Oulton should not count for the same experience when marshalling a different circuit.

I would suggest just the opposite - upgrades should require signatures from more than one circuit, as is required for drivers. Taking that to extremes, an XO visiting a circuit for the first time would assume trainee grade! The whole purpose of the national grading scheme is to ensure uniformity of skill & experience natiowide so that marshals
can work anywhere.

Also that the trainee should get a signature for different risks of corner for example 6 high risk signatures, 6 medium and 2 low

It's not the corner that matters, it's the type of incident. One of the worst incidents I've been involved with was at the Avenue, which I think most people would rate as a 'low-risk' post. On the other hand, I've had days at Old Hall with nothing but a few very gentle slides across the grass. Don't try to complicate matters - leave it to the judgement of the XO as to whether an incident justifies a signature.

Again though the big point which I make is that the reason for marshalling is not some kind of warped career progression and obsession with getting up the ladder, but for love of motorsport!

Warped career progression? Hmmm.....what does that say about observers? I hope I've achieved the balance between badge-chasing & recognition of ability. If you don't want to progress through the grades, fair enough; don't knock those who take a pride in a job well done.

The former type of marshals can easily turn off the latter if they and the BMMC don't start soon to understand what some of the 'quieter' marshals want out of the hobby, then this could just be another reason why numbers dwindle.

I don't see why; I'm happy to let others do what they want without feeling that it impinges on me in any way. It's interesting that in the 'Why have you stopped/cut down your marshalling' thread nobody, as far as I can remember, has cited the grading scheme as a reason.....it really isn't an issue. When all's said & done, it's the person that matters, not the grade.

....and before you say it, I'm not trying to justify myself; I ceased to care what others thought about me a long time ago!

[serverbrainfailure]

hell - if i'd bothered to grade properly from the day i started - i'd be getting my last sigs for I/O by now...

[Alan Green]

I've done 50+ meetings a year for the last four years, shouldn't I be a gold X by now?
Of course I'm joking, I've worked to get my signatures for flag marshal and I'm happy with that. I need two signatures to change that to blue/red, and when they come they come, it's no panic to me, as are signatures for observing which i'll take of offered, BUT, that's not to say that in my first year I didn't push damn hard to get my ten course signatures as soon as possible to get away from the fear of the novice that some graded marshals have.

The bottom line is if you don't go through the grading system, and then feel you don't get the appreciation you deserve, do something about it. Contact your BMMC regions' grading officer and get on with it. This isn't a career path we're following, or a way to get extra brownie points at signing on, it's a way for your colleagues to see instantly that you have been assessed while marshalling over a length of time and (at least three different) senior officials have said that you are capable of performing the task you've signed on for, and will be able to assist with your (hopeful) enjoyment of the day (damn, there's that e-word again).

Alan

[Alan Green]

Originally posted by Alan Green
if you don't go through the grading system, and then feel you don't get the appreciation you deserve, do something about it. Contact your BMMC regions' grading officer and get on with it.
Alan

Err, I've just re-read that after reading some other comments on this topic and should point out that this is not aimed at anyone in particular, either on this forum or not, just my thoughts as they worked their way from my brain to the keyboard via my fingers. I don't want it taken the wrong way by anyone.

Thanks
ALAN