Datalogging

John Wilkinson · 1 Jan 2007, 18:08 (Ref:1802933)

I am thinking of fitting datalogging for 2007 (in the vain hope that I might find some magic improvement!!) and wondered if anyone had any views along the lines of,

Does it bring real benefits?

What is worthwhile (speed, throttle position, g sensors, etc, etc)?

What systems do people have experience of and recommed (or otherwise)?

What systems work with the beacons installed on the circuits and do all circuits have them?

Does anyone know of any second hand systems?

**Asp** · 1 Jan 2007, 21:14 (Ref:1802997)

As this isn't Fordy specific I'll send this over to Racing Tech John, there's certainly a large body of opinion over there that might never visit the FFord forum (and miss out for it )

Jacal · 2 Jan 2007, 01:59 (Ref:1803124)

I'm thinking about the same thing so would also be interested in pros and cons of various brands if there is anyone who has used a few and can add their view, greatly appreciated.

Chucky · 2 Jan 2007, 08:00 (Ref:1803187)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkinson

I am thinking of fitting datalogging for 2007 (in the vain hope that I might find some magic improvement!!) and wondered if anyone had any views along the lines of,

Does it bring real benefits?

What is worthwhile (speed, throttle position, g sensors, etc, etc)?

What systems do people have experience of and recommed (or otherwise)?

What systems work with the beacons installed on the circuits and do all circuits have them?

Does anyone know of any second hand systems?

In answer to your questions

1.Yes

2.Speed, throttle, lateral g, rpm and assorted engine health sensors (water temp, oil pressure, etc).

3. AIM is cheap enough but the software is hokey and it lacks a lot of features. Motec is good but too pricey these days. Pi is way too expensive. Digitek/Magneti Marelli is very good and affordable but can be a pain to setup.

4.None that I know of.

5. Yes.

JohnMiller · 2 Jan 2007, 08:16 (Ref:1803195)

4. All main UK circuits have PI master beacons which saves you remembering you left your beacon out 45 mins after you left the track.

greenamex2 · 2 Jan 2007, 08:26 (Ref:1803199)

Does it bring real benefits - It can do if you learn how to use it. Initially the most useful feature will be the ability to compare laps to find out why one was faster. Most of them also have a 'theoretical fastest lap function' which can give you a target to aim for. It will also require you to change your driving, by the sound of it your are prepared to which is good.

What is worthwhile - Everything you mentioned plus engine temperatures and pressures.

Systems - I have used Astratech extensively and it is now very outdated compared to the current offerings. I have played with the Stack software and it looks really good. The AIM software looks simple and easy to use but a little more basic. The PI software looks excellent but is expensive. Personally I would go for the Stack preconfigured system unless money is tight then I would go for an AIM setup.

Beacons - Only the PI system works with the installed beacons.

Secondhand - Try Dataspares, who also supply AIM, seem very helpful and know their stuff. Stack stuff pops up a lot on eBay but often goes for close to list price because people don't do their research.

Lukin · 2 Jan 2007, 08:29 (Ref:1803200)

Also Brake Pressure is a necessity. If you can only afford 1 pressure sensor then so be it, but front and rear is better.

If your tuning the driver then the basic inputs (throttle, brake, rpm, speed, steering and accels) are all you really need.

If your tuning the car you will need suspension position too and vertical accleration (not all accels are 3 axis).

greenamex2 · 2 Jan 2007, 09:20 (Ref:1803223)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukin

Also Brake Pressure is a necessity. If you can only afford 1 pressure sensor then so be it, but front and rear is better.

If your tuning the driver then the basic inputs (throttle, brake, rpm, speed, steering and accels) are all you really need.

If your tuning the car you will need suspension position too and vertical accleration (not all accels are 3 axis).

For a beginner to datalogging I would say these would initially be an unnecessary expense. They are already going to suffering information overload!

However, buying a system that would allow these to be added later would be a good investment.

StephenRae · 2 Jan 2007, 10:17 (Ref:1803263)

Hello John...It would suit us both if you went for an AIM system then we could both keep using your timing beacon! I am only just getting to grips with mine, but I can see the potential.I hope to get someone really quick in my car to give me a bench mark. The instruction book is hopeless but once figured out it is all quite straightforward, Dataspares were very helpful even though I didn't buy it from them.

ss_collins · 2 Jan 2007, 10:48 (Ref:1803295)

I'm just starting out with data logging too - I've got a Pi system and will use it to write a few bits for the magazine on living with a logger. I'm hoping to use it to d some basic straight line aero testing as well as trying to improve me as a driver.

Randy · 2 Jan 2007, 11:16 (Ref:1803314)

Data logging is simply excellent. On a very basic level its great to know what the simple engine parameters are doing over a race distance. Beyond this there is a huge amount to be learnt but don't bother buying expensive kit that you don't have the time or ability to read. Start simple and work your way up.

Rubinho · 2 Jan 2007, 11:37 (Ref:1803339)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chucky

3. AIM is cheap enough but the software is hokey and it lacks a lot of features. Motec is good but too pricey these days. Pi is way too expensive. Digitek/Magneti Marelli is very good and affordable but can be a pain to setup.

Don't discount Pi simply because of cost. The price may be higher than other systems but for good reasons. The software is widely considered to be easier to use and more powerful than other systems (see comment re. Digitek and Marelli systems being a pain to set up). What use is a cheaper system if it's difficult to get working and harder to analyse the logged data? Expensive is a relative term. Many of the UK circuits have Pi timing beacons saving the cost of buying one for another system and maintaining it. I would also say the technical support you get from Pi is better than from any other manufacturer. Plenty of FFords use Pi in the UK and there are support engineers out at (for example) British F3/GT rounds where FFord also run. I doubt you'd see a Marelli/AIM/Bosch/Motec guy there!

DISCLAIMER: Without giving too much away I may be biased, although the opinions are all mine. Send me a PM and I'll try and offer more advice if you're interested.

ss_collins · 2 Jan 2007, 12:37 (Ref:1803387)

I've seen a motec man at alot of race meeting this year (and lots of Pi people too)

Triple J Motorsport · 2 Jan 2007, 12:43 (Ref:1803392)

Pi is in my opion the best and 2nd hand system2 kits come up for sale quite often.

Support is exellent as is the software and spares.

Have used these in all my cars.

esper · 2 Jan 2007, 15:33 (Ref:1803659)

and what about race technoloy dl1??? didnt hear that one

kickstart · 2 Jan 2007, 16:30 (Ref:1803710)

I had a Race Technology DL1 system which I used for a couple of seasons and it was a very impressive bit of kit for relatively small outlay. But the one thing you need to remember with Data logging is that you will benefit from having some comparative data from someone mighty quick preferably in the same car and dont forget it does take a large investment of time to get fully conversant with the system and then to anaylsis each session etc.
Personally I could not be bothered with it and gradually started to use it less and less and now have put a good digital video camera in the car which I find more helpful and at least gives you something to watch of a Winter's evening.
If you can afford it I would get a system that allows you to put the data onto a video of you driving.

Have fun

John Wilkinson · 2 Jan 2007, 21:22 (Ref:1804262)

Stephen, good to hear from you. What model AIM do you have? What sensors have you connected? Have you used it to plot circuit maps?

james s · 3 Jan 2007, 00:49 (Ref:1804395)

Farringdon Instruments data loggers and lap timers can all use the fixed uk track beacons.

Lukin · 3 Jan 2007, 02:50 (Ref:1804425)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickstart

But the one thing you need to remember with Data logging is that you will benefit from having some comparative data from someone mighty quick preferably in the same car and dont forget it does take a large investment of time to get fully conversant with the system and then to anaylsis each session etc.

Personally I could not be bothered with it and gradually started to use it less and less and now have put a good digital video camera in the car which I find more helpful and at least gives you something to watch of a Winter's evening.

That is the crux of the whole system really. You need to use it all the time or not at all. And it needs to be functioning properly all the time (everything must be calibrated and working correctly) otherwise you lose faith in it and it just becomes dead weight on the car.

A bit OT: I'm not sure what sort of racing series your in and the level of commitement but it could be an idea to see if you can get someone who is willing to volunteer to work with you as a leg up to a career in motorsport.

That's the path I followed when I was at uni; went to the local track and spoke to the boss of the main FFord team. He introduced me to a driver with a basic data system and from then on I basically managed the car (fuel, tyres pressures, setup etc), the data system (setting it up each race meeting, downloading, looking at the data with the driver).

When it came to getting a job that was the thing that got me into a full time gig playing with cars. A motorsport degree looks good, but if you want to work at the track then having worked in rain, hail or shine for free looks just as good, if not better.

StephenRae · 3 Jan 2007, 09:34 (Ref:1804585)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkinson

Stephen, good to hear from you. What model AIM do you have? What sensors have you connected? Have you used it to plot circuit maps?

Hi John..I have an M3XG logger, it has G sensors built in which draw the circuit map, a wheel sensor gives the speed. It also records oil pressure, water temperature and revs. There are 3 spare channels and I think a steering wheel sensor and a brake pressure sensor may come next, an oil temp sensor would be nice. Dataspares were doing a deal on them last year.

Does anyone know if there is a standard circumpherence for an ACB 10 front tyre, it would be good to be able to compare speeds with others

Lukin · 3 Jan 2007, 10:05 (Ref:1804604)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Does anyone know if there is a standard circumpherence for an ACB 10 front tyre, it would be good to be able to compare speeds with others

When I was doing FF I was using 255mm tyre radius based on 1605 mm rolling circumfrence because I couldn't find any other value.

greenamex2 · 3 Jan 2007, 11:13 (Ref:1805003)

A good gotcha for (non GPS) data logging.

We spent two weeks trying to find out why the car was so slow down the back straight at Snetterton.

Eventually traced it to replacement data logger having two digits on the tyre circumference being transposed.

Doh.

Yes, it was the fact that the RPM figure was fine and that the track had suddenly changed length that gave it away!

Good example though of how data logging can easily lead up up the wrong path.

Lukin · 3 Jan 2007, 23:11 (Ref:1805651)

Isn't that human error?

ubrben · 4 Jan 2007, 07:38 (Ref:1805836)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukin

Isn't that human error?

Quite - it's hardly the logger's fault if you forget to calibrate it properly.

A data logger is a tool for recording electrical signals in proportion to a physical aspect of the car's behaviour. Any leading up the wrong path as a result of misunderstanding the data or calibration is entirely human.

Ben

greenamex2 · 4 Jan 2007, 09:44 (Ref:1805896)

Which is exactly the point I was making, but clearly passed people by.

Data logging on it's own is completely useless, it is the interpretation of the data that is the important bit.

And the interpretation can misdirect you, whether it is due to incorrect calibration, lack of experience, lack of data for comparison, a faulty sensor, electrical noise, software bugs etc etc etc.

Even something as simple as the lap beacon being at the different end of the pit lane between runs can cause confusion.

In short, the best system is probably the easiest one to use but that can grow as your experience and requirements grow. And the more it can do to protect you from possible human (or other) errors the better.

For this reason the PI system (or whatever is replacing it) is probably the best. Whilst the display itself is barely adequate (very minimal information) the hardware, software and support is probably streets ahead of the more budget orientated offerings. A quick flick through the manual shows just how driver orientated the driver bits of the system are, and how detailed and flexible the analysis software is for the team when back in the pits.