Is this true??

[ferrarifan]

Hi all,

I heard from someone not very familiar with the F1 world, that some drivers actually pay to the teams (low performance ones' of course) to be drivers. In that way, according to him, they are exposed and can show their abilities to the major teams and have the chance to be hired... wierd isn't it??
I thought that there was a "career", like you first drive indy cars, then F3000, then you are the 4th, then the 3rd. driver of team and so on.... it is not that way??

[Asa]

Yes these drivers exist and they are known as pay drivers.

Occasionally a pay driver does become a world champion eventually, Niki Lauda was the most often quoted example.

[DKGandBH]

I think Webber started as a Pay Driver...
Did Alonso ?

DKGandBH

[Kicking-back]

To clarify this - many drivers find their own sponsors and use those to secure a drive.


It is very very unusual for someone to be rich enough that they get the chequebook out and buy themselves a seat.



And 99.9999% of drivers in all forms of motorsport started out as a "pay driver".

[Dutton]

Michael Schumacher needed financial backing (to the tune of US$500 000 I think) in order to persuade Eddie Jordan to take him, for he was more set on, IIRC, Johansson.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by DKGandBH

I think Webber started as a Pay Driver...
Did Alonso ?

DKGandBH

I think basically anyone thats started with Minardi or Jordan wouldve started off as a pay driver, even at Jaguar Christian Klien had a fair amount of financial backing from Red Bull.

[Andrew Gunnell]

Another driver who was a pay driver had his farther pay for his drives in F1 was Pedro Diniz.

I think team managers some times miss the talent over money. I know they need money to run the team, but F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gunnell

Another driver who was a pay driver had his farther pay for his drives in F1 was Pedro Diniz.

Pedro's dad didn't pay for his drives.

Pedro's dad owns a chain of supermarkets in Brazil, and said to Parmalat "sponsor my boy, and i'll make sure your milk and cheese is stocked in my shops".

[BootsOntheSide]

More precisely, I think Parmalat products got bigger promotion within the stores (their own cabinets containing their products, I believe) in exchange for the sponsorship.

Paying drivers are nothing new. Sometimes it's the onyl way for smaller teams to ge tthe funding neccesary to complete a season. In some cases a team might take a second driver who is (say) 1 second slower than an unfunded driver who's avialable, but the slower driver can bring money which will allow the cars to be 0.5 seconds a lap faster - the end result being a more competitive lead car.

[Kidzer]

Reminds me of a quote I saw from Murry walker about the two most important drivers in F1

"MS because he's the best and Pedro Diniz because he's the richest!"

[Kicking-back]

It was Flavio Briatore who said that, Kidzer.

[BootsOntheSide]

I always thought it was Jackie Stewart's quote, but there you go.

[Kicking-back]

I'll need to look it up to provide a reference, but I'm 99.999% sure it was Flav

[Kidzer]

Well, I was sure it was Murray - oops!

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Kidzer

Well, I was sure it was Murray - oops!

Murray may have been quoting Flavio

[Snrub]

What about Mazzacane, did his money come from his family?

^ Great quote.

[BootsOntheSide]

The South American TV network PSN sponsored Mazzacane. They paid the full amount for his 2001 season, even though Prost axed him after 4 races, due to a loophole Alain exploited.

[Red Emperor]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Murray may have been quoting Flavio

Or Flavio may have been quoting Murray

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

It is very very unusual for someone to be rich enough that they get the chequebook out and buy themselves a seat.

And 99.9999% of drivers in all forms of motorsport started out as a "pay driver".

Lavagghi did and there must be others I don't think of at the moment.

I take it that you are exagerrating when you write that 99.9999% of the drivers started out as "pay driver". This was certainly not the case with JV, RS, JPM, OP, etc. to name a few. There are indeed sponsors who "recruit" promiseful or proeminent surnames and then develop them or assist them in their career but those are not "pay drivers" in the sense that they were recruited by an outfit based upon their talent (and/or name), not mainly for their direct or indirect financial contribution.

[Dutton]

I think it depends on whether you interpret KB to be meaning their career as a totality, or F1 specifically.

I think it can be presumed he didn't mean purely F1, for that just doesn't seem sensible to me (but I maywell just be living under a false impression).

[Kicking-back]

I meant in racing, not F1 specifically.

No-one with no money at all gets into motorsport.

[BuzzedHornet]

I could be wrong here, but I think when JPM was a test driver for Williams he brought sponsorship $'s with him for Frank. I know that Chip from CART bought him for a year from Frank too. So JPM made Frank some money even as a test driver and as a driver in CART.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think it depends on whether you interpret KB to be meaning their career as a totality, or F1 specifically.

I think it can be presumed he didn't mean purely F1, for that just doesn't seem sensible to me (but I maywell just be living under a false impression).

I took it as meaning their career as a totality but the source of confusion is rather what is meant by "pay driver".

Obviously, anyone as to pay for his equipment and running costs in any given sport to start with in the lower leagues (whether it be his kart, etc.) but this does not make him a "pay driver" as meant by the intiator of this thread.

A pay driver is someone whose hiring is dependent upon his bringing of money to the team (whether it be by him writing a cheque to the team (very rare indeed) or by him bringing a sponsor to the team who would not otherwise sponsor the team). KB's comment was, I think, disregarding the last "honourable" way to get into f1, i.e. via a motorsport sponsor "filière" whereby drivers are "hired" by the sponsor based upon his talent or reputation (such as the Players connection who, until recently due to tobacco legislation, would identify, select, participate in the development of promiseful pilots such as JV, the ill fortunate C. Moore, P. Carpentier, etc. I think Daimler did likewise in Europe for drivers such as N. Heidfeld, R. Zonta and K. Raikonnen. They all got their seat primarily as a result of their performance, not based upon the money they brought in.

Those are not "pay drivers" in the sense of what I think was meant by the initiator of this thread.

[Dutton]

Yep, I see, that is a fair comment. I think we are all in agreement.

I think there is perhaps a distinction though: what about drivers who get their break in F1 due to being a pay driver, but turn out to be a very talented driver nonetheless? I susepct there should maybe be a distinction between someone who pays initially soon moves beyond that and establishes his future on merit (and thus progresses up the ladder), and the other alternative of one who keeps a seat for years purely on the basis of continuing funds (and does not move up the ladder, if anything go further down).

Just a thought.

[Adam43]

k-b meant that all where a "pay driver" to start with.

Originally Posted by k-b

of drivers in all forms of motorsport started out as a "pay driver".

Highlighting exactly the discussion we are having on teh semantics of "pay driver".

How they get their drive is interesting, but immaterial when the flag drops. I wouldn't right off a pay driver because he brings money. At the lower end of the grid it is a teams market. Many drivers want to be in F1 and few of them are the next Schumacher. So what do you do - get someone who can bring a bit of dosh too!