Upgrading from trainee

[xelallah]

How do you go about upgrading from a trainee? Is it 12 sigs? Anything else? Can't find any info on this anywhere.

[mattt]

10 Signatures
1 checking signature - not sure whether this is included in the 10 - my guess is yes
and a training signature

[danccooke]

need at least one training signature and a practicle fire training too i believe plus ten sigs. Send it to your main club then will then send it off with a checking signature, sit back and wait....and wait.... and.... eventually you nice new card will arrive.
I believe now the sigs have to be for coursing and flagging, but that might be for upgrading from Marshal to experienced marshal. I will have a look and come back shortly.

[Col_Rugby]

Here's a link that might help you. http://www.marshals.co.uk/files/Revi...g%20Scheme.pdf


Page 5 of the pdf has a flow chart which shows what you need to upgrade from any grade.

As far as I can see to upgrade from trainee to course you need 10 signatures for a mixture of course & flagging, 1 training signature (including fire????) & an examination (not a rubber glove one either before anyone says it ) from a X Obs.

Then as Dan says, send it to your club for checking etc, then wait wait & wait for it all to come back to you from the MSA. Don't forget to take a photocopy of your signature card, just incase your friendly Post Office lead it astray.

[ChrisA]

If you're grading under the old scheme you 10 signatures and 2 training signatures, one of which MUST include fire training. If under the new scheme, 11 signatures, 1 training/fire signature. Under the old scheme send your completed card to your regional grading officer and wait for your upgrade to come through. On the new scheme, if you feel ready to upgrade, when signing on ask if it's possible to go with an Examining Post Chief/Ex.Observer for an assessment. If assessment is successful, you will be signed off, then you send your card to your regional grading officer for upgrading.

[Mark Mitchell]

As an X-Obs, I have to say (Six months in) that I think the new system still has some very grey areas.
I have assessed and recommended around 6 marshals so far for an upgrade, but am not 100% sure that all actually met the criteria to actually get as far as the assessment!

My regional training officer and my regional grading officer have both given me slightly different explainations of the required number of signatures.

Now reading Chris's version above, it's completely different again!
It's all becoming quite confusing and a bit of a pain, in what is essentially a hobby for me!
In my view, if someone comes to me for an assessment - his/her card should have already been verified as complete.

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

It's all becoming quite confusing and a bit of a pain, in what is essentially a hobby for me!

Why do you think I'm not NGO anymore?

[HairyDJ]

Do the x-obs actually get given guidance notes on how to process someone for upgrade, or is it left to their common sense? I'd actually like to know what they would expect from me before I put them to the trouble of assessing me.

I've already gone past my 10 sigs and do need to sort out a session with an x-obs next time, but got very confused a month or so ago when one suggested (informally) that because several of my sessions had been solo on post instead of shadowing / getting advice, then I needed to wait a while. It was also suggested that I shouldn't have done that much flagging, as trainees should be concentrating on incident experience with flagging to be added later.

Now, I'm not in a desperate rush to grab extra badges / colours like I used to in the scouts 40 years ago, but I do get the impression that "the system" is still bedding in. It's probably tougher to get to know the detail of for those who grew up under previous systems as there are some areas of similarly as well as some subtle differences.

At the end of the day, although a badge / grade may help folk to get a feel of what I can do, it's not a race & there is no prize for grabbing all the grades as fast as you can.

Cheers, David

[xelallah]

I did a training day, which did Trainee and Fire training. Done one day flagging and 11 other days on trackside. Will speak to my club. Cheers all!

[BeeJ]

Originally Posted by xelallah

I did a training day, which did Trainee and Fire training. Done one day flagging and 11 other days on trackside. Will speak to my club. Cheers all!

You will need an on circuit assesment done by an X ob.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Do the x-obs actually get given guidance notes on how to process someone for upgrade, or is it left to their common sense?

Yes, is the answer to the first part of the question - sort of! We were given a few notes on what we should be looking for: Basically Knowledge, Attitude, Skill and Experience. In reality, the new assessment is not much different to what we did before in deciding whether to award an upgrading signature.

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

I'd actually like to know what they would expect from me before I put them to the trouble of assessing me.

A demonstration of competency mainly, plus the four subjectives listed above.

[Darren Holmes]

Originally Posted by BeeJ

You will need an on circuit assesment done by an X ob.

Alex,

One thing you must do before sending of your signature card to your local club/BMMC grading officer is to take a photocopy, thankfully I did as Royal Mail decided to lose it! Second time lucky and I think the process from sending off the card (2nd time) to getting my Upgrade back from MSA was about 4/5 weeks.

Darren

[r.arthur]

Originally Posted by Darren Holmes

Alex,

One thing you must do before sending of your signature card to your local club/BMMC grading officer is to take a photocopy, thankfully I did as Royal Mail decided to lose it! Second time lucky and I think the process from sending off the card (2nd time) to getting my Upgrade back from MSA was about 4/5 weeks.

Darren

sounds like usual royal mail !!!

[bravo]

I'm curious if there are any other marshalls (trainee or not) who just CBA with the amount of politics in the grading system and just want to marshall?

I've hardly been on the bank at all this season due to work commitments but in my first year and a half I must have been to over 15 meets - but only got about 2 sigs.

It just seems an awful lot of work, and sounds very confusing, and there isn't always someone to sign.. especially when you're on post alone except a stand-in observer!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by bravo

I'm curious if there are any other marshalls (trainee or not) who just CBA with the amount of politics in the grading system and just want to marshall?

If you just want to marshal, fair enough. However, I personally think grading is well worth the little effort it requires; it gives other people an indication of your level of experience & ability, & gives you a sense of achievement. Politics? That's down to individuals, not the grading system.

I've hardly been on the bank at all this season due to work commitments but in my first year and a half I must have been to over 15 meets - but only got about 2 sigs.

It just seems an awful lot of work, and sounds very confusing, and there isn't always someone to sign.. especially when you're on post alone except a stand-in observer!

The new grading system addresses that problem. Under the new system, signatures are given for attendance, so you don't need an examining post chief, nor necessarily have done anything, to get a signature - you'll get one for every meeting you marshal at.

[aland]

Mark, that answers a query I had as how can you deal with incidents if all the children play nicely as all I did at KH yesterday was to sweep the track after each session and although I did weild my broom with style I did little else apart from add a bit of muscle to a XR2 when lining it up for a flatbed

take it the reason for flag training is so that you are qualified/experienced in doing flags if bodies are low as I dont really want to do flagging

[Nadine J Lewis]

Please send a complete MSA "upgrading" form with your grading card to your regional grading officer. The same form you used to get on the MSA register and the same one you use if you change address / name etc. It saves a lot of hassle and postage if this is included (complete) with your grading card. Then your nominated club justs signs it and sends off to MSA to get your upgrade recognised.

Trainee to Track = 10 days Flag / track duties + 1 training
Track to Experienced = 15 days flag / track + 2 training
Experienced to IO = 10 days as IO + 1 training
Experienced or IO to Post Chief = 10 days + 2 training

All above require assessment by X-grade Post Chief

[Dunc]

Originally Posted by aland

Mark, that answers a query I had as how can you deal with incidents if all the children play nicely as all I did at KH yesterday was to sweep the track after each session and although I did weild my broom with style I did little else apart from add a bit of muscle to a XR2 when lining it up for a flatbed

take it the reason for flag training is so that you are qualified/experienced in doing flags if bodies are low as I dont really want to do flagging

So you got it easy yesterday then I think we had most of the action at Mcintyres and Duffis you could say we were kept on our toes.

[CombeMarshal]

Must stress the SIT BACK AND WAIT BIT!
Mine was approved AGES ago, still not got it yet!

And there's the other thing, I think some people get through the grades way to fast, Is it really right to have someone just out of school as an Experienced Marshal/ IO? I think life experience plays a lot in Marshalling!
Thinking about it, if you need a training day between each grade then you'd have to be around 20 to be an Experienced Marshal, if my maths with the system is correct!

Oh, on the waiting thing, I asked for it to bought up to the MSA at a recent Seminar and by alll accounts they are going to get onto it!

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by aland

take it the reason for flag training is so that you are qualified/experienced in doing flags if bodies are low as I dont really want to do flagging

Nothing wrong with being able to flag, as you said you WILL find yourself at some point having to do it, i have done numerous times, if numbers are low, and at some events/posts it can be the only way you actually get to do something that day!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by MarshalGirl

Trainee to Track = 10 days Flag / track duties + 1 training
Track to Experienced = 15 days flag / track + 2 training
Experienced to IO = 10 days as IO + 1 training
Experienced or IO to Post Chief = 10 days + 2 training

Nadine, I'm assuming that the upgrade to PC (10 days) is "As PC" - as in the upgrade to IO?

The Northern Grading Officer told me a couple of weeks back that to upgrade to experienced from track, you MUST have 5 flagging signatures.

From what you've written above (And from what I've been told elsewhere) the 15 signatures have to be a combination of flag & incident?

Told you it was confusing!

[Teletubby]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

And there's the other thing, I think some people get through the grades way to fast, Is it really right to have someone just out of school as an Experienced Marshal/ IO? I think life experience plays a lot in Marshalling!

I couldn't agree more, it worries me that somebody with barely 2 years experience could be an IO! In two years under the new scheme you could have dealt with almost no incidents (and absolutely no serious incidents) but get yourself a grade that allows you to run a team of potentially much more experienced Marshals who would expect a level of expertise and experience from their IO which may not be there.

I have personally encountered an experienced Marshal who was providing fire cover at an extrication (purely precautionary and a long time ago now) who passed out because he didn't like the sight of blood (which was only from the IV access!).

Now, I am not criticising him, it's not his thing and he knows that now but imagine if he had been the IO!

[xelallah]

There does seem to be a lot of '********' (politics) involved with upgrading. I just want rid of the trainee status. Photocopy made, email sent, so hopefully I can get this X-obs assessment done asap. Again, thanks for all the pointers in the right direction.

[Teletubby]

I'm not so sure it's politics so much as a lack of clarity and understanding of how the scheme is working on all sides.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Nadine, I'm assuming that the upgrade to PC (10 days) is "As PC" - as in the upgrade to IO?

Yes!

The Northern Grading Officer told me a couple of weeks back that to upgrade to experienced from track, you MUST have 5 flagging signatures.

From what you've written above (And from what I've been told elsewhere) the 15 signatures have to be a combination of flag & incident?

You can choose to specialise in either flag or incident, but your 15 signatures must include at least five in the other discipline.