Progression to CoC

[alec]

Something that i've been pondering for a while that was stirred up by recent threads is what path various Clerks of courses have taken to be in their posts.
Now i can only speak for what i see on the Hillclimb scene, as i don't tend to do Circuits. It seems to me that there's two distinct groups of CoCs:

Those who have progressed to it through Marshalling
Those who are retired drivers with less involvement and marshalling experience.

Now it's far from my place to theorise on what group is more suited to dealing with incidents (although you're welcome to theorise yourselves), but it could certainly go a fair way to explain the actions of a number of CoCs with regard to the application of disciplinary rules.

Am i making sense, or is this view based purely on my own environment of the Midland hills and not applicable to anywhere else?

[Stoowert]

You're making perfect sense to me. I've often wondered how CofC come about. Are they born, created, or evolved out of normal people...

[EvilPumpkin]

In Ireland, there is no formal training or qualification process for being a Clerk of the Course.

A case in point. A person I know decided to apply for a Stewards licence but was unsure how to fill out the form. A query to someone in one of the organising clubs led to the response "just tick all the boxes and see what you get back".

What he got back was a Deputy Clerk of Course licence.

Sadly not a joke. That actually happened.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

In Ireland, there is no formal training or qualification process for being a Clerk of the Course.

A case in point. A person I know decided to apply for a Stewards licence but was unsure how to fill out the form. A query to someone in one of the organising clubs led to the response "just tick all the boxes and see what you get back".

What he got back was a Deputy Clerk of Course licence.

Sadly not a joke. That actually happened.

That would never happen in England, Scotland or Wales. To obtain a Clerk's licence you have to have a club write to the MSA on your behalf, nominating you as having sufficient experience to warrant becoming a Trainee. On receipt of your Trainee licence you are also appointed a "Mentor" - mine was John Felix, who is probably one of the best International Clerks of the Course around. You are given a booklet covering all the aspects of the job you must learn, which has to be signed by the CoC and MSA Steward at each event you attend as "Assistant CoC". (You don't reach the dizzy heights of "Deputy" until you are qualified as a CoC).

Signatures are not handed out lightly and a great deal of work has to be done before you finally achieve your "final" signature. Once you have received that final signature, you must then submit your Trainee licence, along with two references from CoCs you have previously worked with, before you are considered for your full Licence.

When your full CoC Licence arrives in the post (complete with badge) you are then eligible to be a "deputy" CoC (i.e. making decisions if the CoC is not available). Even now, on the occasions when I am Deputy CoC at Sprints, I rarely make decisions without referring to the senior CoC present.

With regard to the original post - it matters little which path you take - the training is exactly the same for all of us. But perhaps the ex-competitors have the edge in understanding the thought processes of the person they may need to disclipline and be more lenient, whereas we who have moved up from the marshalling side may just want to shoot the miscreant!

[Mark Mitchell]

There are several Clerks that I know whom I have worked with on the Bank prior to their journey over to the dark Side!

One was a flaggie and then Observer around the same time as me.....another was the Chief Pit Marshal at Oulton and another, who is currently training, comes from an Observing background.

There are still some Clerks who will don the romper suits when they're not needed upstairs - which I find great.
As a trainee Observer, I once spent a BTCC weekend with a Int A Clerk as my senior Observer. It was very useful to find out exactly what a clerk requires in terms of report writing. I think it helped me to become the wonderful examining observer I am today!!

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I think it helped me to become the wonderful examining observer I am today!!

[Mark Mitchell]

You CAN go off people you know!

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

You CAN go off people you know!

I know, but you love me!

[Mark Mitchell]

[Stephen Green]

Where is the Fat Clerk when you need him!!!

Brisey.......wakey wakey.

[rescue dude]

I know of a few clerks who have NEVER done a day on the bank before qualifying. Jim W would not be surprised at the venue, ( very close to you Jim ).

I personally think that a clerk needs to have a minimum amount of days on the bank to fully understand how the system works in reallity not just on paper.

[Ian Sowman]

In that case they should probably have a minimum number of competition days under their belt too, for the same reason.

[rescue dude]

Couldn't agree more Ian but i'm sure i'm correct in saying that this is not the case.

Old boys network i fear.

[stroller]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

In that case they should probably have a minimum number of competition days under their belt too, for the same reason.

By that Ian, Iassume you mean actual competition driving ?

If that is the case, unfortunately, because of the costs involved, it would probably exclude most of the Marshals/Officials that we have at present.
Which in turn is why many people volunteer - because they can't afford to compete, but still want to be involved.

[Ian Sowman]

No, you miss my point.

It was suggested that Clerks should I have marshalling experience so they can see situations from that point of view. It could be argued that it is equally important for said Clerks to have experience of the drivers' view point too.

I can see that this is rather impractical. I'm not suggesting that all marshals/officials need racing experience.

[stroller]

I see what you were getting at Ian, but I was trying to point out that if that was the case (competition experience) the progression to CoC through the Marshaling ranks would then become practically impossible.

I think we get more Clerks from Marshals than we do Drivers.

[Ian Sowman]

I know it would be practically very difficult, and I wasn't actually suggesting that it should happen that way - but I am sure we'd all agree that in a perfect world it would happen!

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by stroller

I see what you were getting at Ian, but I was trying to point out that if that was the case (competition experience) the progression to CoC through the Marshaling ranks would then become practically impossible.

I think we get more Clerks from Marshals than we do Drivers.

I have followed this thread with great interest! As a person who competed with a racing team for some three years, and then; (after 3 years in Germany), I became a Marshal progressing to Exm; Observer., I must say that I agree that to see both sides of the equation can be beneficial. When Clerking I can work with the Observer in that I have first hand knowledge of the majority of the Corners/Posts that I am receiveing reports from, and therefore can visualise, perhaps, what really happened. Also, as a past competitor I can appreciate that we can all make poor judgements, not necessarily deliberate contraventions of the regulations.
What I have been against in the past, I hasten to add, is a an employee working for a major Club and is told he must train to be a Clerk in order to work weekends - Wrong Attitude!!.
I must just add that a Clerk who has come through the ranks, so to speak, is more likely to know the Observer he is dealing with - Very Important, and also likely to go back to that Observer with a Clerks decision; VERY important!!

[Peter Harding]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Where is the Fat Clerk when you need him!!!

Brisey.......wakey wakey.

Think you'll find FC is in China waiting for a race next week.

[Cornerworker]

...and don't forget that there are a number of us Marshals who have also competed on their way to becoming a Clerk.

[Alan Crook]

The Fat Clerk actually used to race single seaters many years ago, I believe Formula Ford & F3. I`m sure on his return from China he will confirm this.

Now come all the jokes on how did the Fat Clerk ever fit in one of those !!!