Is it time for a privateer P1 class?

[The Badger]

My question : Is it time for a privateer class at Le mans and the WEC .

It seems to me , like the early 1990's is repeating itself again . Hugh Chamberlain said to me about the 3.5 litre when it was introduced , there wasnt enough money for privateers to make that work , ..... and it did take years before they did make it work .

The likes of Rebellion , Pescarolo and many others cant compete against the big boys like Toyota and Audi , as they cant afford to buy , run , develope this system to the same degree as works opperated or backed teams .

What about Toyota , Audi supplying the car to privateers without the hybrid technology to support a privateer P1 class ..... just a thought .

[ger80]

Whats wrong with them teams being part of a really strong LMP2 class what would survive when the works backed teams disapear in a few years time?

[The Badger]

Well , Henri doesnt seem interested in anything but P1 , and the way its going , without works support a private team will have an uphill battle , and will always race for 4th or 5th position . Some teams arnt interested in P2 .

Im sure Rebellion love to dream about a win , but when is that likely to happen to be honest . Its going to stay a dream ..... and thats no good , just having works teams win , cuz that will eventually lead to the demise of the privateer .

Why not have a class just for privateers then ?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Well , Henri doesnt seem interested in anything but P1 , and the way its going , without works support a private team will have an uphill battle , and will always race for 4th or 5th position . Some teams arnt interested in P2 .

Im sure Rebellion love to dream about a win , but when is that likely to happen to be honest . Its going to stay a dream ..... and thats no good , just having works teams win , cuz that will eventually lead to the demise of the privateer .

Why not have a class just for privateers then ?

The last few years have been a disaster for LMP1 rules and regulations. WEC, the change in engine formula, and a shrinking market place due to poor series management has meant there really is no viable option for privateers. Instead of always thinking of how the rules makers can appease the manufacturers over the short-term, they need to start thinking about the long-term health of the sport.

Judd, AER, Mazda, Zytek engines just haven't been worthwhile under the new regs.... These regularly changing engine rules and capacities make it harder and less economical for these customer engine boutiques to provide competitive engines, against the millions of dollars the manufacturers are spending.

This simply isn't sustainable without some sort of change in tact.

If these competitors wanted to compete in a subclass, there are already spots for that.

[The Badger]

What spots ?

P2 isnt a subclass , its a class in its own right . Im talking about a truely privateer P1 class that could the above engine manufacturers you mentioned .

[deggis]

Time for recap:

[The Badger]

Where did this come from ?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Where did this come from ?

From the ACO press release about the 2014 regulations dating back from Thursday of Le Mans week this year.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by The Badger

What spots ?

P2 isnt a subclass , its a class in its own right . Im talking about a truely privateer P1 class that could the above engine manufacturers you mentioned .

WEC already has a sub class like that, LMP1 Privateer Trophy (not that anyone cares)

The current situation is messy but please god, no more classes for cars that have the eglibility to run in other classes as well . GTE-PRO & GTE-AM separation sucks enough. At this rate we'll probably have these categories in five years

LMP1-PRO
LMP1-AM
LMP2-PRO
LMP2-AM
LMPC
LMGTE-PRO
LMGTE-AM
LMGTC

[Gingers4Justice]

I am very surprised that there's so much debate around this. Even in the late 90s when privateers where light years behind 4 or 5 full works teams, they still showed up and were still there when the manufacturers left.

LMP2 is the privateer prototype category. If you want manufacturers, you can't have garagists or small privateers competing with them. The days of Bob building a Le Mans podium finisher in his garden shed are long gone.

Le Mans is the pinnacle of endurance racing and for that reason, the best the motoring world can offer should be competing for overall victory. Small privateers belong in LMP 2.

[Fogelhund]

http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...iled_7618.html

6 BASIC POINTS TO REMEMBER

• New technology will be granted freedom with regard to powertrain (that is engine and hybrid system) in accordance with the development of road vehicles.

• The engines are free. The limitations of cylinders, restrictors and turbo pressures are removed.

• Significant reduction - up to 30% - of the use of fossil fuels used.

• The hybrid systems are free as long as they can be measured but are limited to two per car. The private teams are protected.

• Cars must be closed to improve safety.

• Weight and width are reduced.

Note *** These needed FIA approval... were they granted?

I appreciate that P2 isn't a subclass, just that there is a class already for people not wanting to compete against manufacturers. If you want to wear the big boy pants, wear the big boy pants.

[Salamus]

I don't understand the reasoning behind these privateers attempting to take on the big boys. The last time a privateer truly challenged a factory entry was Pescarolo in 2006/07 with the amazing Pescarolo 01. But now, these factory P1s are too sophisticated and too technical. Gone are the days of privateers competitively fielding prototypes made by manufacturers (R8, Porsche GT1, 962). If a privateer really wants to challenge Audi/Toyota/etc, then bring the budget and bring the technology. If you can't, then join everyone else in P2...where you belong.

I'm not hating on Rebellion, OAK, Pescarolo. I love the effort they put into their programs but even they must realize that at every race, they are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Note *** These needed FIA approval... were they granted?

Preliminary approval was granted, final approval is expected at the next FIA WMSC meeting some time in late August-early September (which will also see the 2013 WEC calendar announced as far as I'm aware).

[Purist]

G4J, Salamus, team principals WANT to be in the "top class". The privateers slogging it out in LMP1 are going to stay there, or bust. They don't want to be in the second class, period! And you can say all you want about egos or whatnot, but if you don't have that kind of single-mindedness to begin with, chances are pretty damn good that you're not even going to make it to the LMP1 class in the first place. I think a number of these guys are going to be in LMP1, or they're just not going to be in this form of racing at all! So, do you want these entrants or not?!

Smaller engine shops should have the opportunity to make powerplants that are at least close to the works machinery in performance. And really, there ought to be some customer cars out there for privateers to pick up from manufacturers. It's hard to say exactly what sort of rule might work for that, that wouldn't send the factories packing, but that would get customer LMP1s out there in meaningful numbers. I kind of liked the thought regarding the old ban on on-car sponsorship (which was lifted by the FIA between 1968 and '69), which basically meant that you made money on your cars by, well, selling cars.

EDIT: Maybe one thought, for a future rules set, is to require a manufacturer to officially partner with one of the shops to make the car/engine, and teams buy the cars from the shops, not the manufacturers themselves.

[pablocomics]

On a recent interview, Jesus Pareja explained some of the problems of the current championships http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...nce-12103.html

The first problem are the costs, the current LMP1 class is extremmelly expensive. In the olnd GrC age the costs for a car (a competitive one) was close to the current GT3 cars. Obviously that´s impossible now, but they should place some limits

The second problem, the private teams can´t win and as it was said by Pareja, that kills championships (and teams).

Probably the better way to have a decent WEC and a good LMP1 class is make the same thing as LMP2, cost capped LMP1 for all the teams and ban the works teams. You can call me crazy now

[Purist]

I think a new Porsche 962 was $250,000-300,000 or so in 1986. The question is, what does that come out to now with inflation?

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think a new Porsche 962 was $250,000-300,000 or so in 1986. The question is, what does that come out to now with inflation?

$500k-$600kish

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think a new Porsche 962 was $250,000-300,000 or so in 1986. The question is, what does that come out to now with inflation?

Naw, they were cheaper... they were around quarter of a million Deutsche Mark... with the dollar being much stronger than the DM back then, they should've been below $200.000.

[Purist]

The figure I gave is the figure the commentators mentioned during the ESPN coverage for both the 1985 and '86 IMSA races at Riverside.

[gregtummer]

Why don't they just get rid of LMP2 and divide the prototypes into

LMP1 Unlimited $$
LMP1 Cost Capped

That way, LMP2 cars can move up into LMP1 and run somewhat reasonable lap times compared to the manufacturers on the cheap.

This would also help ALMS.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Preliminary approval was granted, final approval is expected at the next FIA WMSC meeting some time in late August-early September (which will also see the 2013 WEC calendar announced as far as I'm aware).

"The 2014 LMP1 Technical Regulations were ratified by members of the World Motor Sport Council via a fax vote in early June..."

(15th June) http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...rtCouncil.aspx

Anyway, whether what you said is correct or not, this is a mere technicality I think.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Why don't they just get rid of LMP2 and divide the prototypes into

LMP1 Unlimited $$
LMP1 Cost Capped

That way, LMP2 cars can move up into LMP1 and run somewhat reasonable lap times compared to the manufacturers on the cheap.

This would also help ALMS.

Great idea! This is basically what Mosley proposed for F1, except in sportscar racing where we have costumer cars it may actually work. I'd also give the cost-capped cars some kind of advantage, maybe less weight or bigger wing, or larger fuel allocation.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Why don't they just get rid of LMP2 and divide the prototypes into

LMP1 Unlimited $$
LMP1 Cost Capped

That way, LMP2 cars can move up into LMP1 and run somewhat reasonable lap times compared to the manufacturers on the cheap.

This would also help ALMS.

And the top P1 teams could still run away with it .

By creating a seperate class , such as P1 privateer , you can still win a class .

[The Badger]

Carbon fibre is what has made it more expensive too . At least with the old aluminium tubs , you could do a field repair , and repair it back at base with a manufacturer supplied drawing .

[MitchZ06]

I thought the honey badger just don't care?