Works/Manufacturer Backing

[markf8691]

Hi

On another message forum they were discussing a manufacturers involvement and some people were saying that MG in BTCC is not a manufacturer team, they are a works team or even works supported maybe. They have stated Honda as a works team...

Can anybody explain what is the difference between these? Any examples of each?

Manufacturer Team
Factory Team
Works Team
Works Supported
Semi Factory Team

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by markf8691

Manufacturer Team
Factory Team
Works Team
Works Supported

Same thing, just different ways of saying it. Semi-works is when the team has the blessing of the manufacturer and maybe some assistance that isn't financial. Such as support vehicles and hospitality.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Same thing, just different ways of saying it. Semi-works is when the team has the blessing of the manufacturer and maybe some assistance that isn't financial. Such as support vehicles and hospitality.

...or shells?

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by markf8691

Hi

On another message forum they were discussing a manufacturers involvement and some people were saying that MG in BTCC is not a manufacturer team, they are a works team or even works supported maybe. They have stated Honda as a works team...

Can anybody explain what is the difference between these? Any examples of each?

Manufacturer Team
Factory Team
Works Team
Works Supported
Semi Factory Team

Manufacturer team
Manufacturer pays over 75-90% of the costs, typically owns the cars (which tend to get 'gifted' to the team at the end) if they feel so inclined. Other sponsors tend to be commercial deals with the manufacturer (Yuasa is battery supplier to Honda for example). Pro drivers (ie they are paid in some way and do what they are told if required)

Factory team/semi factory
Depends on sport but can be either no different to manufacturer team or usually defined as manufacturer supported - cash and tech

Works team/ works supported
Term only exists where there are multiple teams running similar machinery supplied by the manufacturer, some will be customer teams (they buy the kit off the manufacturer and run the car themselves) or a level of works or factory support. You see this more in bikes where the manufacturers build and sell bikes to teams to run and then have their own factory back team.

Generally bike manufacturers have the business model sussed, they sell their kit and give support to those teams that show them in the best light (be it on or off track) so they win and they can earn money from it. Car manufacturers seem to be a bit dim in comparison in that they either support a single make series (so they can't 'lose' against a competitor) but ultimately the racing is never as good as multi brand stuff or they throw huge sums into their own factory team and frankly **** it away as a result.

In BTCC you have Honda as the only full factory team, everyone else is full independent, chucking a few shells at a team and paying the entry fee is not a factory supported team by any stretch of the definition.

BMW are the only touring car team to get the model right, build an S2000 car that's quick, flog hundreds accross the globe and make a few quid from selling spares and different levels of support and put money in here and there to make sure they look good - smart marketing, as the teams do the job for them but can be distanced if they screw up. However, dtm sucked all the people in so they dropped the teams like a hot brick leaving them with nothing (they did the same on the gt4 m3).

Seat come close every now and then with the various cupra cars but missed a trick in not building a new wtcc car as it would sell like hot cakes but they stopped short and settled for the the club racers they have now.

[Moneyseeker]

Slightly OT but following on from John's post, Porsche probably have the best motorsport business model.

They sell large numbers of one model cars to teams that compete in Porsche championships- all promoting Porsche.

They sell cars for GT championships, run works teams and support selected teams as factory backed.

They have scholarships for up and coming drivers, they employ factory drivers and also sprinkle these amongst selected supported teams for key events.

The cars have a long life, even the older models are still raced and you can bowl up more or less anywhere in the world and race a Porsche 911.

They literally touch on all aspects of motorsport.

Makes touring cars look very expensive, short competition life and quickly obsolete.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Thorney

BMW are the only touring car team to get the model right, build an S2000 car that's quick, flog hundreds accross the globe and make a few quid from selling spares and different levels of support and put money in here and there to make sure they look good - smart marketing, as the teams do the job for them but can be distanced if they screw up. However, dtm sucked all the people in so they dropped the teams like a hot brick leaving them with nothing (they did the same on the gt4 m3).

And if you were a customer team and did really well, they'd help you out. I remember being told an independent WTCC team was given some special bits and pieces as a thank you for helping out the works cars a couple of years back. Super thin oil at 2000 Euros a drum for Macau was one of the gifts!

[Thorney]

Agreed on Porsche, I was keeping to touring cars really as Porsche are gt's but your point is spot on.

If you compare the specifics, you can buy a cup car for £100k, its 420bhp, laps Donny 5 secs faster than a BTCC car, has flappy paddles, abs and all kinds of toys, after its life in carrera cup it can run in all kinds of race series all over the world so typically is sold a year later for 70% of its cost. It's subsidised by Porsche of course but bearing in mind how many they sell not as much as we might expect. The downside is the running costs are horrific, gb rebuilds at £15k a go, lifed components so a season in carrera cup is £200k+, not a massive amount different to BTCC but its a support race so doesn't have the tv or the crowds - you pays yer money and all that.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

And if you were a customer team and did really well, they'd help you out. I remember being told an independent WTCC team was given some special bits and pieces as a thank you for helping out the works cars a couple of years back. Super thin oil at 2000 Euros a drum for Macau was one of the gifts!

That's pretty cool, any more examples out there?

[mikuni]

If a common category is ever agreed upon I'm certain it will become cheaper for the manufacturers. It was disappointing to see BTCC and WTCC split a couple of years ago, after the S2000 cars were relatively transferable. You have all of the different variations of touring car racing around the world also, and most seem to be altering the rules at least annually, making it difficult to off load the cars after their first season.

Australasia alone has at least 5 different V8 classes running right now. The most popular Australian V8 Supercars, the Dunlop support category using last years (pre-COTF) cars. Then there is New Zealand, where the old NZV8 class was recently replaced by 2 new categories the V8 Supertourers and the TLX NZV8s - both of which have relatively limited numbers, meaning the old NZV8 class (using outdated cars) is still the official championship.

I only use the above example because it is so familiar to me and it sums up what appears to be happening with touring cars around the world right now. Even the DTM - JGTC technology share isn't quite panning out.

Then you have North American and Canadian categories that appear similar to NGTC and the FIA touring cars, however are just different enough that they can't be used in either series.

Imagine is Hyundai's (for example) 1.6l turbo engine could be used is ETCC, WTCC, BTCC and perhaps series' in the America's and Asia. It could be a mass produced platform that customers or semi-backed works teams could run in Hyundai models or perhaps even Kia.

Standardization to be is what needs to happen for touring cars to survive and thrive into the future. It needs a formula that worked as globally as the early years of Super Touring and something that can be taken globally.

I actually think that Australia V8 Supercars COTF (car of the future) has the right ingredients to succeed at least in the USA and UK, however I'm not sure if a large car is what Europe or Asia would want to base a series on. It is quite a spectacle though, it's just whether manufacturers see value in trying to push sales of a large car when all they sell is hatch backs and mini-SUV's.

[markf8691]

Thanks for the response guys some more questions:

So MG in BTCC isn't a factory/manufacturer/works team? Are they not giving any financial support at all? What about whenever Chevrolet competed a few years ago in BTCC?

You said that Honda is the only full factory team competing in BTCC - would they not be works supported as the budget comes from Honda UK, were as the Hondas in the WTCC would be factory/manufacturer team as its coming from Honda direct?

[auroan]

Originally Posted by markf8691

Thanks for the response guys some more questions:

So MG in BTCC isn't a factory/manufacturer/works team? Are they not giving any financial support at all? What about whenever Chevrolet competed a few years ago in BTCC?

You said that Honda is the only full factory team competing in BTCC - would they not be works supported as the budget comes from Honda UK, were as the Hondas in the WTCC would be factory/manufacturer team as its coming from Honda direct?

Honda's WTCC effort is run by JAS and Honda Europe.... but yes the sign off, money and engine (via mugan) ultimately comes from Honda Japan.

[markf8691]

Thanks.

Ok so what about Ford in 2005 - were they a factory team or independant? Seen conflicting articles in Autosport, 1 stating that it wouldnt be a factory team and another stating they had works support from Ford.

Also Alfa Romeo in 2006/7 and Honda in 2008?

[Thorney]

Mg provided a couple of tars as freebies, some shells and bodywork and paid the team entry fee (not sure on that bit) They also allowed use of the factory for pr/launches, that's it.

Chevrolet did roughly the same (Silverline paid for it all, along with Tesco for mg) which is no surprise as both deals were put together by Plato, give him credit for that. We used to be sponsored by Tesco so I'm pretty confident on the numbers too.

Running joke on Chevvys input at the time was that they bought the jackets

Not sure on Ford, I believe there was some tech input but as to how much, by whom or whether it was worth the effort I'm not sure.

[jimothy84]

The MG cars don't even have an MG engine... they run the TOCA unit.

[Thorney]

Honda is a uk deal, hence rhd cars made in the uk used as base models, Japan have final sign off in all things of course but it's seen as a domestic series therefore under uk's marketing budget. Wtcc is Europe but with more input from japan.

[Andrew Abbott]

Originally Posted by Thorney

Honda is a uk deal, hence rhd cars made in the uk used as base models, Japan have final sign off in all things of course but it's seen as a domestic series therefore under uk's marketing budget. Wtcc is Europe but with more input from japan.

Although they also use right-hand drive cars in Japan.

[chunterer]

My view has always been thus:

A Factory team is entered and funded by the manufacturer (or maybe a car builder fully funded and endorsed by the manufacturer)

A works supported or semi works team is an outfit that may have works supplied cars/shells/engines/bits but does everything else themselves.

Then in the old days Alan Mann, Holman Moody for example were Ford contractors so they entered agreements where they would repsresent Ford in touring cars or sportscars etc. They got cars and equipment at a cost price/discount, did all the work, but Ford got all the PR credit!!!

A dealer team is one that draws funding and support from a national importer/entity but may not be directly blessed by the manufacturer.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by chunterer

My view has always been thus:

A works supported or semi works team is an outfit that may have works supplied cars/shells/engines/bits but does everything else themselves.

Then in the old days Alan Mann, Holman Moody for example were Ford contractors so they entered agreements where they would repsresent Ford in touring cars or sportscars etc. They got cars and equipment at a cost price/discount, did all the work, but Ford got all the PR credit!!!

and importantly, could order parts or shells etc from the production line that had either been selected from many or modified as the rules allowed.