Marshalling numbers discussion (originally 'Welcome to the real world Garth')

[Trevor]

Garth Tander is upset by the lack of flag marshalls at a recent F3 race where his wifes car was damamged.


One thing to say Garth - welcome to the real world.

All meetings (other than your glorified V8's) suffer with a lack of officials, get over it, move on and tell her to drive better.

I think Garth is taking over the mantle of the new Murphy - whinge, whinge, whinge!!!

[PVDA]

As Trev said, Welcome to the real world Garth.

First he complains a few years ago that the flag marshals at Winton didn't show a Blue Flag even though (and he should've known that) Race Control tell the individual marshals when to put out the flags.

Now he's complaining about a lack of numbers.

I don't know about other marshals but unlike Garth I'm not paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to turn up at race tracks and it all comes out of my own pocket.

An average Winton weekend would cost me over $250 in fuel, food & accomodation depending on how many peple I share the cabin with at the Caravan park. Now multiply that by around 12 or so events at Winton alone and you get the idea.

Even home based events at Sandown involve travel distances close to driving to Winton over a 3 day weekend.

Marshals are usually keen when they first start but the financial reality of it all soon kicks in and they reduce the number of events they can do, as a result the events which require overnight accomodation are the one's to suffer the most.

It is now a requirement for new licence applicants to attend one day at a race meeting and spend it on a trackside marshals post, perhaps it's time to make it a requirement for all current licence holders to see what it's like on our side of the armco.

<- the response from V8Supercar drivers if asked to do the above.

[davelise]

The incident actually happened during Friday free practice too. Always hard to get people to chuck in the job for a day to wave flags for free. These friday practice days are always short of officials and you need to drive accordingly.

[NAC]

PVDA and all the other Marshalls all over the world, all a totally undervalued resource to the motorsport world. (no joke I'm serious)

Maybe it's time to start providing a bit of financial support to these guys in order to attract a few more.

Note to GT, working this angle may get you a better result.


Personally I've never done marshalling and have to say never really wanted to. I enjoy more the freedom to roam around the track. Having said that I can understand what you guys give up in order for me to have my wishes. again the Marshalls

[RotorFan]

Maybe his complaint has been taken out of context. Maybe someone like him complaining is the start to doing something about it. I don't know what, but at least Tander is highlighting it.

[Prickly_Goo]

I find it really amusing actually. GT has a whinge about being bored and suggesting racing in the Fujitsu Series, and then he has another whinge about not enough officials..

I say harden up mate, cos if it was wasnt for the officials you wouldnt be racing V8's either..

It is often said that Marshall/Officials are the lifeblood of some meetings. I take me hat off to every Marshall/Official in Australia..

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

Maybe his complaint has been taken out of context. Maybe someone like him complaining is the start to doing something about it. I don't know what, but at least Tander is highlighting it.

Rotor, a very good point. Out of context or not let's hope that it does spark some action.

Friday practice or Saturday qualifying doesn't really matter, nobody likes tearing up $100 bills by the box full at any time.

[GT16]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Garth Tander is upset by the lack of flag marshalls at a recent F3 race where his wifes car was damamged.


One thing to say Garth - welcome to the real world.

All meetings (other than your glorified V8's) suffer with a lack of officials, get over it, move on and tell her to drive better.

I think Garth is taking over the mantle of the new Murphy - whinge, whinge, whinge!!!

Thanks for the character assesment there Big Trev.

I do live in the real world mate, if you were at Oran Park at 11.30 Friday night in garage 1, you would have met me, I was the bloke with the other TanderSport guys rebuilding a damaged car.

Yes, it seems that you have taken this out of context. I was asked what I thought of a situation where 5 cars were involved of a totally avoidable accident and I gave the response that I believed to be the case. It wasn't having a go at any flag marshals (couldn't have been, there weren't any there, not their fault) it was a go at the series and its lack of professionalism, this is after all a National Series, billed as a viable alternitave to the V8Supercar program.

[mod]This post left in full in the Oran Park Accident thread[/mod]

[Trevor]

Your prompt response Leanne is appreciated.

However Garth has tended to moan about most things these days, yes I know that it is the media giving him the air time, and the edited version is not always what was said.

However as a volunteer official I can tell you that for us to be there requires us to give up a days employment and incur the travel, accomodation costs as listed above.

Gart earned a bit of a bagging for his comments about poor performing flaggies at Winton in 2006, when in fact the call about blue flags is made by Schenken and he should know that.

Many, many other people are involved in racing incidents all the time, having flaggies would help, BUT it is a PRACTICE day, not a race meeting.

[GT16]

Its actaully Garth, but it seems you only read what you would like.

In 2006, I said that the blue flags weren't being showed, that is a direction from race control in V8SC, therefore my gripe was with race control, I wasn't alone in this, it was cleared up that I wasn't having a go at the flag marshals as they only display what they are told to.

This was, and still is, a gripe with the series and its administration. I do not have the answers as to the logisitics behind having flag marshals at the circuits on a Friday. They should be paid, I, as a team owner would be happy to include a fee that would go towards the flag marshals being paid on a Friday, as part of our Friday fee's. It would be cheaper than the bill I am paying at the moment.

[mod]edited to the marshal specific sections[/mod]

[alfacors]

The simple fact is that had there been even ONE flaggie per point on the Friday then we would not have had a 5 car incident in the F3s. That is FACT. It has nothing to do with any of the drivers abilities behind the wheel either.

[mod]edited to the marshal specific sections[/mod]

[Muznik]

Firstly let me back up NAC's post to all track marshalls & volunteers. Without them not only would the privileged drivers not get to do their stuff but fans like me would have nothing to watch.

Having said that when i read the article I got the opposite impression. To me GT was saying if the marshalls had been there the accident may have been prevented. I hardly see that as "bagging" the marshalls, more the organisers.

Some of you are being overly sensitive and could be accused of being guilty of what you are accusing GT of.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by GT16

Trev, apology accepted.

.

From what I have heard, there will be "some" flag marshall at the next round at Mallala. How many, I am not sure, but at least it is a start.

I would be there if finances permitted it, but it is an 8hr drive from Melbourne.

Like was said before, GT you are in a position to (possibly) provide an experience that people may not get, why not offer a tour of the pits to officials on a Friday (just an idea, not necessarily a good one mind) just something that would encourage marshalls to come on a Friday.

How were the drivers involved in the crash? It doen't seem like there were any injuries, except for some cars and bank balances.

Mick

[GT16]

Mick,

Luckily there were no serious injuries. Matt Sofi, Mathew Radisich and Leanne all complained of soreness and slight whiplash that I know of, but nothing serious.

I would be happy to provide some sort of tour that would give the attending marshals of the day an experience. We regularly have officials coming by our garage on these weekends to say hi and have a look at the cars and stuff.

[mod]edited to the marshal specific sections[/mod]

[alfacors]

In NSW at least there is a struggle to get flaggies for events at all levels. Even the V8Supercars seemed to be down on flaggies willing to do the event. Too many events? Not enough return/recognition/gratitude? There's still a good hardcore band of guys who go to any event they possibly can (in all states, not just NSW), but they won't be aroundforever. One good thing at OP the other weekend was the number of younger guys doing flagging, a positive sign IMHO

[STEVO]

Originally Posted by PVDA

As Trev said, Welcome to the real world Garth.

An average Winton weekend would cost me over $250 in fuel, food & accomodation depending on how many peple I share the cabin with at the Caravan park. Now multiply that by around 12 or so events at Winton alone and you get the idea.

A few years ago I was chatting online to a dude who's a Flaggie. I nearly fell off my chair when I found out you guys got paid ZIP!

I mean, yes you are VOLUNTEERS, but why isn't your travel subsidised? I assumed you'd get a meal allowance. I travel for my work and I get paid per diems when on location. It took me about half an hour of repeating the same questions to him for it to finally sink in to my brain. You guys get ZERO pay for it all?

I still can't believe it. To not even get fuel allowance or food allowances? I don't understand? Full pay? No. But allowances for meals and accomodation? HELL YES. I'm gobsmacked! I honestly thought for years you guys got SOMETHING. I couldn't believe it.

My personal opinion is that if ticket prices keep going up for these VESA events, then portion of that should go towards the marshalls getting proper treatment? Not money but allowances? Yes there is the arguement of 'they're getting a free race' BUT... they ARE working and putting themselves at risk here!

Am I the only one who feels these dudes some fiscal reimbursement?

[bludvl_x19]

The easiest way that I can explain it to my mates is by asking them what their hobby is, and whether they get paid for it. Another way is to look at service clubs like Apex and Kiwanis, to name a couple. They provide a service to the community, with no reimbursement.

We aren't in it for the money, just a bit to cover fuel or something would be good though. We get given bag lunches, and all the drinks (water) they can get to us throughout the day, and the best seat in the house!

Mick

[Trevor]

Some tracks provide free accomdation, all provide free lunches and drinks.

But that is it. Full Stop. No more!

But as Mick said volunteers do it to help out, not for the financial reward, but on the other hands there are limits to everything and giving up work for Friday is a tough one. Most will do it for one event per year, but every race meeting is a bit too much

[davelise]

Here is a post I made in the Marshals Forum after my brief flagging experience.

Just wanted to publicly thank all flag marshals and officials who donate their time so we can go racing. I've always been grateful to you guys but after spending a day in the rain at Eastern Creek historics here is Sydney I have no idea how/why you do it. I had to spend a day on the flags as part of my licence upgrade. It was a great experience and I believe ALL drivers should have to do it at least once a year. Thanks fellas.



I agree with GT, I would pay extra to have marshals at the track for Friday practice sessions, I would even pay more if I knew the money was going to the flaggies.

[Trevor]

Thanks for the feedback David

[Denosaur]

From my experiences, if the flaggie's had proper protection from the elements at there flag points that might be a start. All good to pay them something for there time, but when you have to stand in the rain some days, no protection, no break, no easy access to a toilet, you start asking yourself is it really worth it. With CAMS now forced to jump on the OH&S bandwagon, nothing much has improved, some minor changes at some circuits, but not at all of them.

If the conditions aren't enough then politics will get you. You go to V8 event and you have to put up with the VE$A politics and garbage that is associated with there events now. And they wonder why officials don't turn up to race meetings.

One thing I do know, is when there is Moto GP testing at Phillip Island, some officials are paid to man some of the points. From what I was told by one of them, it was about $75 a day. But I don't think lunch or anything else was included, as officials get at a normal CAR race meeting. Before anyone gets excited about this, this was a couple of years ago, so I don't know if they do it still, but there was some strict conditions applied to the day like staying away from the garages, photography and talking to riders.

Paying officials might work and solve the problem of accidents like this happening again, but will it reduce or solve the rest of the issue that trackside officials have to deal with over the course of a race weekend.

[STEVO]

I hear you Deno and I don't think they should paid as an income for it.

They should at least get an allowance at all tracks to buy a bottle of water and quick meal? They should be allowed a loo break (these guys don't get loo breaks???)

Anyways, I don't think Marshalls should be paid but they should be looked after 'properly'. i.e. Meal alllowance, accomodation subsidies and you know, making sure they're ok. If they're not, there's no racing and then I'm not happy sitting on my arse at home on the couch watching the tele.

It's all about me, people. The consumer. To keep ME happy, we need to look after the Marshalls.

[davelise]

The day I flagged at Eastern Creek they were very short of officials (as usual) and most points only had one flag marshal...ever tried to hold a SC board and wave a yellow flag and watch the track in both directions? Due to rain and the usual offs the lunch break was canceled so there was no opportunity to leave the flag post for a pee from 8:30am to 5:15pm (racing ran late). Like I said, I don't know how you guys do it.

Credit to the ARDC, the lunches supplied were excellent and water was delivered to all flag pints during the day.

[peckstar]

i cant believe we still hve flaggies in this time and age. surely we have the technology to superscede them

[bludvl_x19]

The technology is there, in the form of digiflags and CCTV cameras, but it costs. It still isn't in F1 yet, what hope does a circuit like OP (which is being demolished in the next 2 years) have of getting it? The human element trackside will always be there, even though Race Control can use the cameras to assess the situation, they will always ask the person on the ground who can see the actual incident in front of them.

Mick