MSA Speed marshal registration & other marshalling matters

[Chris Hobson]

Just to keep everyone up to date on what is happening with this extension to the grading system.

I understand the that this is happening now – the MSA have the computers fixed (they had genuine major problems!) and the details are being entered as we speak. The cards should be going out imminently. I will try to keep everyone informed of progress so please do not inundate the MSA with "Where is my card" queries yet!

We originally agreed 2008 for Grandfather rights – however due the initial delay in the MSA getting the cards out, we will be discussing extending this at the next Marshals Working Group meeting at the MSA on September 18.

If there is anything you want raising at the MWG please e-mail me (bmmc.chair@btinternet.com) and I will look to putting it on the agenda

[blackx]

Mine arrived yesterday

[AndyMil]

Mine was waiting for me on the mat saturday, when I got in from Curborough

[Circuitmarshal]

Got Mine today, all correct apart from the club details.
It shows the club that organised the training day where I filled in the form rather than BMMC.
Is there an easy way to change it, don't want to interfere with the MSA at the moment?
I am not a member of the other club but their training days are very good and 5 Min's from home.

[Woolley]

I was rather hoping the MSA were going to forget about us... Now I'm going to have to work out how the heck this scheme operates. Mind, since most of us know each other I dare say we'll largely ignore it and continue to allocate on the basis of who gets on with who, where they like (or don't like) to be posted and what we know their abilities are. We're lucky to have a good core of highly able marshals around the midlands and I can honestly say that I find the grading scheme largely superfluous anyway.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I was rather hoping the MSA were going to forget about us... Now I'm going to have to work out how the heck this scheme operates. Mind, since most of us know each other I dare say we'll largely ignore it and continue to allocate on the basis of who gets on with who, where they like (or don't like) to be posted and what we know their abilities are. We're lucky to have a good core of highly able marshals around the midlands and I can honestly say that I find the grading scheme largely superfluous anyway.

Woolley, how could you??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This current grading scheme is the best thing since sliced bread. Any Chief Marshal instantly knows the capabilities of any Marshal that presents themselves at your sign-on, just look at the (MSA awarded) badges. Surely that tells you all you ever need to know about someone's ability, experience, days-on-post, suitability etc,etc,etc.

Sometimes one does wonder? "it wasn't broken so why try to fix it"

As you stated, I can only agree (having been a Chief Marshal in the Midlands) that you are very much spoilt in the quality and quantity of marshals at your disposal. There is no doubt that since the introduction of the Combined HillClimb Training days some years ago, (to introduce similar operating procedures to all 3 Hills) all the Midland venues have benefited.

It's such a shame that it has taken this long for the "Organising Authority in the UK" (MSA!) to finally recognise the abilities of these highly trained Marshals.

[Pistonbroke]

Had me worried there at first Stuart

I feel much the same as Woolley - in truth I've only applied for registration to be able to receive the publications (The Marshal & Motorsports Now?).

I only do two or three circuit meetings per year, so at best will become an 'experienced trainee' in that discipline and I'm quite happy with that. At speed venues, either Chief Marshals know me or, at a new venue, I prefer to be regarded as a trainee anyway.

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Mind, since most of us know each other I dare say we'll largely ignore it and continue to allocate on the basis of who gets on with who, where they like (or don't like) to be posted and what we know their abilities are.

[happyhammer]

I have no clue how the speed grading system works or whether it is worth bothering. I have been to Gurston a few times this year; despite doing stuff I have no signatures to show for it. Do I have to use a separate grading/attendance card from track marshalling or can it all go on the same card? - In fact, is it even worth bothering?

[Nighthawk]

I Feel the whole process of Grading/Upgrading needs to be clarified as there is still alott of confusion over this.

[Woolley]

The main question I have is 'what is it for?'

It should tell me, as the person who'd allocating, whether or not the person with the grade can be relied on to:

a) look after themselves.
b) look after someone else.

At the hillclimb I do, that's not really necessary. I was flippant about it above, but my comments have a serious side. I do know the majority of my marshals (and I'm more than happy with the standard with which I'm blessed week-in, week-out). When new people come along I can place them and either see, or have reported back, what sort of marshal they are. Again, I'm lucky because knowing the poeple as well as I do and with the social side of Midlands hillclimbing the people reporting back aren't always aware they're doing so! It works well, and we don't really need a grading scheme other than it's nice for people to acheive a grade and get confirmation to themselves that they're doing alright. I can, for instance, think of two excellent marshals who I believe benefitted from being able to get that acknowledgement fairly quickly, but where it was unquestionably earned through demonstrating ability, not just by turning up.

Now if I were running a less supported, irregular or new event and lacking that knowledge when people turned up, I would want the grading system to tell me more than that this marshal turned up to 20 meetings and looked capable on the two occasions he was assessed, and my feeling is that it doesn't. I want it to indicate a difference between a marshal who got the grade mainly by just being there and the ones mentioned above (they'll know who they are!) who earned it by right.

[HairyDJ]

Maybe it also has some value to the less experienced on a post? When you're with a crowd that you've not worked with before, you try to work out who is the best placed to listen to & who is a bit too keen to offer advice from their wealth of inexperience. How faded their Probans are is a good rule of thumb, but doesn't work in all cases!

There can also be some use to other experienced colleagues - if a lack of grade badge(s) indicates a less experienced marshal, you might cut them a bit of slack when it doesn't go perfectly, or offer a little praise if they do well. Not something that you may want to do for a more experienced colleague without appearing to be a bull****ter or patronising.

Having come up through the new "attendance" system, I wouldn't say it was perfect but it is predictable. Other threads have discussed the wisdom of waiting (or not being passed at assessment) beyond the minimum attendance - if only there was a way to tag these folk!

In a system that required a trainee to have been "busy" at an event, there is a huge risk of de-motivation - if you spend 3 days at a big event and have no incidents to do, and thus get no signatures, how likely are they to come back? That can then put an organiser under a degree of pressure to place trainees on posts that will have above average incidents - perhaps exactly the opposite of what the drivers would hope we were doing!! In an ideal world, we could put trainees on a big busy post with an experienced team around them, but how many meetings are that over endowed with resource?

I'm not aware that I've ever met someone who is a Buddy under the new MSA scheme - any comments from one of that rare breed about how they have seen the system work on some of their people?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

There can also be some use to other experienced colleagues - if a lack of grade badge(s) indicates a less experienced marshal, you might cut them a bit of slack when it doesn't go perfectly, or offer a little praise if they do well.

More importantly, less experienced marshals should not be expected to perform beyond their ability. Trainee status should be seen not as a stigma, but as a safeguard.

Not something that you may want to do for a more experienced colleague without appearing to be a bull****ter or patronising.

A little bit of praise, or just a 'thank you' for a job well done, goes a long way!

Having come up through the new "attendance" system, I wouldn't say it was perfect but it is predictable. Other threads have discussed the wisdom of waiting (or not being passed at assessment) beyond the minimum attendance - if only there was a way to tag these folk!

The new system isn't perfect, the old system wasn't perfect. Whatever the system, 'badge-chasers' will rush through the grades; the professional marshals will move more slowly through the system. Just as an aside, I wonder of anyone has not been recommended for an upgrade after an assessment?

In a system that required a trainee to have been "busy" at an event, there is a huge risk of de-motivation - if you spend 3 days at a big event and have no incidents to do, and thus get no signatures, how likely are they to come back?

I suspect that the number of people who were lost because of dissatisfaction with the old system is much lower than it is perceived to have been. All my upgrades were done, or could have been done, within a season; yes, it was frustrating at times, but on the whole I found it easy enough to get the required signatures - I think that, on average, I was getting an upgrade signature every other meeting.

I'm not aware that I've ever met someone who is a Buddy under the new MSA scheme

You've met me! (Not at a circuit, though - think back to July 1st!)

any comments from one of that rare breed about how they have seen the system work on some of their people?

Not having worked with anyone in particular, I can't really answer your question. However, I think there are good trainees coming through the system; it will take five years or so for the effect, good or bad, of the new grading system on marshalling standards to be seen.

For anyone who's interested, there's a list of registered buddies on the Volunteers in Motorsport website: under 'More Information' at the bottom of the home page, click on 'MSA Trainers'; clicking on 'MSA Buddy' will take you into the buddy list.

Whatever the merits or demerits of the 'new' grading scheme, it's the only one we've got. It's up to us to work with it & ensure that, as a group, we get the best out of it. In the words of Malcolm X, 'if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.'

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

More importantly, less experienced marshals should not be expected to perform beyond their ability. Trainee status should be seen not as a stigma, but as a safeguard.

... and rest of post ...

Spot on.

[racerkeke]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

How faded their Probans are is a good rule of thumb, but doesn't work in all cases!

You have that right. My Probans are not faded at all, but I have 30 years' hard experience on our equivalent of "the bank". The Probans are only two years old (a gift from an English marshal), and get worn only when I come to England -- we don't wear orange in North America. That doesn't make us less (or more) good at what we do.

Grading programs help but can't substitute for getting to know the person. Recently I was at an event in the US where some visiting, highly experienced marshals were asked to evaluate a local who wished to move up a grade. Though he'd been in the club for some time and supposedly had many of the experiences he was expected to have to meet the grade, three days of working with this individual indicated he was not ready for the grade he felt he was due.

I wonder how he would have been received elsewhere (if he wanted to travel) if he had gotten the expected grade and then not been able to fulfill his duties at that level. The fact that different regions have different standards -- hey, let's get real, it's the same for SCCA as it is for MSA -- means that knowing what a specific person can and cannot do from personal experience might be as, or more, important than what grade they hold.

keke

[Nighthawk]

who is a Buddy under the new MSA scheme -- Never come across anyone who is one yet.

[CombeMarshal]

Still not got mine back, 3 months and counting, I think, seems like a lot more!
Really am thinking of going on strike now!!

[CombeMarshal]

I'll be your Buddy Andy!

Only ever heard of two

[CombeMarshal]

This number works, 01753 76 50 50
Turns out mine has been lost, duplicate on the way! maybe!

[The Fat Clerk]

Have to say I'm not a huge fan of 'Grading', there are Marshals I know that are not BMRMC members and I'd have on my 'hand picked' team anyday, whilst there are those with pretty coloured badges that I'd rather not.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Have to say I'm not a huge fan of 'Grading', there are Marshals I know that are not BMRMC members and I'd have on my 'hand picked' team anyday, whilst there are those with pretty coloured badges that I'd rather not.

Dave, although BM(R)MC initiated a grading system, it now comes under MSA auspices, and several clubs issue "coloured badges"...not just BMMC. BUT I understand your thoughts.