What the DP should have looked like...

[JAG]

Originally posted by Patrick B
Really Jag the Mazda LMP2 is quicker? Funny i havn't seen it run yet...

Come on

They are going to build an LMP2. Its hardly going to be significantly slower than an C65 is it

The true LMP2's are nearer to the pace of the MG Lola's than the SR2 based cars.

[gttouring]

the alms/Garra wars are dull in the broad sense, but we come to see finer points of the argument which are indeed compelling.
why is it so many would like less series, or the same number of series but with open crossing over from one to the next, what makes this important?
i think i know what it means to me, and it could only be a good thing.
"So what you are saying is, a DP with an ACO homologation sticker won't be ugly? - Mhm I'm sure you're right"
no they would still be ugly however, more room for interpretation (the crawford is hardly ugly-per se)
and more manufacturers could really make this a pretty interesting and tight set of rules for more folks to exploit.
of course we have seen our own forum members stab at fixing the looks of DP's and it always involved shrinking the greenhouse a bit.
nevertheless, an ACO homologation would really make them pretty, but so much more can be done.

Broad question: Why do series place a limit on manufacturers availble to construct cars for them?(IRL -Garra, Champcar- even F1,Trans-Am) only JGTC and Lemans and its derivatives seem open to this.

[Chevyguy]

gt, I don't think there's any limits, just the manufacturer's desire to participate. In the case of IRL, GA, stock cars, Champcar, etc. (I think F1 doesn't really fit into that list), you have chassis, engies, etc. for multiple teams which have multiple cars. At Le Mans and F1 you see more of a one off type of car from the manufacturers. I don't see any differance IN CONCEPT of an R&S MkIII with either an Elan or Lazzano engine, or a Mk XI using a Lexus or BMW engine. I think manufacturers just need to take the initiative to put their presence in the DP class. Thank you for giving props to the Crawford which I believe is one of the most beautiful race cars anywhere.

As far as "the war" goes, it always happens the same way. Someone wants to talk DPs, ACO fan spits on them, GA are immediately prompt to defend. I love the ALMS too, but I guess I'm some sort of detractor, because I enjoy the DPs. My favorite class is ACO GTS, so I don't want to dash ALMS in anyway. But I also don't like to see people writing that DPs are slow, when they are faster than F1's opening act (Porsche Cup). Isn't doesn't make any sense. tblincoe wrote that he wants them to go away, and that they give US roadracing a bad name, when it's the only road racing series in the US that's on it's way up. I think the GA fans should stop bashing the ALMS, and it's wonderful machinery. Sure, you can easily go to sleep during the races, but think of how bold Dr. Don is to even put the show on. What I'm saying is, let's focus on the positives of each, and not what each has on the other. Although, I think it may take some strong psychadelics to open an ACO supporters mind enough to see anything positive about about the DPs. I remember before they DPs, GA was spoke of as inferior anyways, that should have ended when tried to separate themselves.

BTW, two inches off the greenhouse is certainly doable, and would be enough to make the cars look better balanced.

[gttouring]

i gues i refered to the GARRA having only 7 apporved constructors- and following engines.
why not allow for any engine builder and engine type (generics if you will, V8's 12 10 6 inlines whatever, built by whom ever wishes) IRl is similar in that it has "3" chassis builders Dallara, GForce and the stillborn Falcon
but IRL would not allow Lola to participate, as GA has not apporved any new constructor for the Dp's and time for that is past (for the next few years or do they review manufacturer entries yearly?)
the same is true with the rest of the series, and F1 will not allow customer chassis for now... as it did in the past but customer engines are free i guess.
the fabcars ave grown on me too, as the Doran...i kind of liked the multimatic, too bad it is getiing "F" all for support from ford and power....
the Picchio oh boy- the toyota variant is the best there...
the Riley- functional but yahtzee is it the ugliest...
so where are the others? Tim Northcutt, billlnC and I (an geographically and often philosophically unlikely trio however our goals and know how are often in the same place)would surely find a better engine builder and a chassis builder to slap a DP together for a few test races in a season if the GA was not so difficult with approval

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by Chevyguy
gt, I don't think there's any limits, just the manufacturer's desire to participate. In the case of IRL, GA, stock cars, Champcar, etc. (I think F1 doesn't really fit into that list), you have chassis, engies, etc. for multiple teams which have multiple cars. At Le Mans and F1 you see more of a one off type of car from the manufacturers. I don't see any differance IN CONCEPT of an R&S MkIII with either an Elan or Lazzano engine, or a Mk XI using a Lexus or BMW engine. I think manufacturers just need to take the initiative to put their presence in the DP class. Thank you for giving props to the Crawford which I believe is one of the most beautiful race cars anywhere.

There is a limit in every sense of the word from who can play to, what they can play with.
The limits exist so who ever is running the series can play god and prevent any company from using its expertice to produce a better product; of course this is what racing was started for in the first place, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Initiative for WHAT? Who can produce the most PC slowmobile?

Manufacturers are in ALM's GTS because, even with the NASCAR type restrictors, up to this point, they can still show who can do the best Smokey Yunick imitation.
Here there is not point to show, as they can prove nothing.
D sports racers are a 100 percent better tech. show that the GARRA DPs.
The Porsche 914/6 was butt ugly but went very quickly. I can live with ugly but fast, I cannot tolerate butt ugly slowmobiles.
Drop the engine restrictions and let's see these cars do what race cars are supposed to do, prove who makes the best product.

As far as "the war" goes, it always happens the same way. Someone wants to talk DPs, ACO fan spits on them, GA are immediately prompt to defend. I love the ALMS too, but I guess I'm some sort of detractor, because I enjoy the DPs. My favorite class is ACO GTS, so I don't want to dash ALMS in anyway. But I also don't like to see people writing that DPs are slow, when they are faster than F1's opening act (Porsche Cup). Isn't doesn't make any sense. tblincoe wrote that he wants them to go away, and that they give US roadracing a bad name, when it's the only road racing series in the US that's on it's way up. I think the GA fans should stop bashing the ALMS, and it's wonderful machinery. Sure, you can easily go to sleep during the races, but think of how bold Dr. Don is to even put the show on. What I'm saying is, let's focus on the positives of each, and not what each has on the other. Although, I think it may take some strong psychadelics to open an ACO supporters mind enough to see anything positive about about the DPs. I remember before they DPs, GA was spoken of as inferior anyways, that should have ended when tried to separate themselves.( Why truth is truth.)

The only positives in all of GARRA are what the cars would be capable of it France and company made rules with the same pizzaz, their father, or grandfather did.
He did not build Daytona or Talledega to parade PC slowmobiles.

Bob

[skycafe]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
There you go, it's faster than the human eye.

If they use the rotary, we will 'know' it is there!

[billnchristy]

if they lower the greenhouse two inches then the Chinese basketball star Yao wont be able to drive one...we cant descriminate!!

The engine building is completely open in GA as long as you follow the rules, you or I could submit an engine within specs to GA.

There is supposedly some new manufacturers coming soon.

As for chassis, i dont know why the regulate so tightly, especially when three of them are sinking quickly with no bilge pumps to even them out...

[Danske]

The big engine restrictions for DPs is that they must be production-based (which is not further defined AFAICT), and that "all major components and parts be for sale to the public in a regular product offering". So every approved engine is available to every team, but someone does have to submit an engine first. The six or eight cylinder restriction has been removed for 2005. The pending approval of an Infiniti engine has been rumored.

The theory behind limiting the number of approved constructors as I understand it was to give them all a better chance at recovering their initial investment. You could say GARRA contracted seven constructors to build cars for the series. I think the only current constructor breaking even right now is Riley at twelve sold the last I heard. Porsche's rumored involvement with Fabcar may result in a boost for them, and Maxwell and Gue driving the Essex Multimatic at Homestead (if that rumor does come to pass) may net a result that improves their image. Maybe after another couple of years five of the seven will have broken even.

[GT1]

It is somewhat odd I felt to limit the DP constructors as well when Multimatic hasn't done much lately except let folks drive around in one and say "Chassis OO1 for sale!" (though that may change), Pichico is all but done with only the ocassional entry from G&W, and the Chase ran one race without any sort of impression at all and hasn't been seen since. Really, its a Riley show with Crawford hanging in there, Doran getting a good day here and there, and Fabcar getting a top six with the Brumos 58 car.

I think some need to get serious or get out. Namely Multimatic, Pichico and Chase.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by GT1
I think some need to get serious or get out. Namely Multimatic, Pichico and Chase.

Or improvetheir car, maybe build an evolution version. No wait, that's not allowed as per the rules.

[Fogelhund]

Originally posted by GT1
It is somewhat odd I felt to limit the DP constructors as well when Multimatic hasn't done much lately except let folks drive around in one and say "Chassis OO1 for sale!"

So, you are certain you know who has been testing, and who hasn't been testing lately? In this case, you would be wrong.

Those original drawings of the Fabcar look fantastic. It is a shame that the cars didn't look like that.

Cy - There appears to be some latitude to reworking some parts of the car, particularly in handling.

[gttouring]

cybersdorf found the double edged sword to the regs
a car so poor in performance can't do anything to level out...does more time need to be spent testing? new engine development, remember the leaps and bounds the multimatic made when it went testing, or was that the picchio (before last VIR race?)
anyway such sinking ships run the risk of not being constructors at all without customers or good cars, doran i don't think is too far off the crawfords, and the Riley's well the expertise from its manufacturers showed day one, but could it be the GM powerplants have a little more oomph than any one else?
based of a porsche spec?! not likely....
or maybe no engine builder is coming up to the fore and attempting, even that the GA say they dyno engines before apporved so as to make adjustments to the power....
so why did they kill the BMW picchio motor? it didn't do well but i recall the revs being lowered after a few races about 500 rpm for what i dunno, the game is a foot! and it smells between the toes! methinks.

[paul-collins]

From dailysportscar August 28:

“We’ll be putting our toes in the water at Homestead, where Scotty will drive with James Gue in the Essex car. They will have some of the improvements on their car, but not all of them, as there just is not enough time,” explained Larry Holt.

When the Multimatic factory car does return at VIR, it will come after a test session that they are already scheduled for. The car will be driven by Scott and David Brabham, who combined to win the first Daytona Prototype event at Daytona in 2003. The plan is to finish out the season with the finale at Fontana.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by billnchristy
if they lower the greenhouse two inches then the Chinese basketball star Yao wont be able to drive one...we cant descriminate!!

The engine building is completely open in GA as long as you follow the rules, you or I could submit an engine within specs to GA.

Here as the saying goes, white man speaks with forked tongue.
COMPLETELY OPEN ? Then why are they so slow.

"you or I could submit an engine within specs to GA."

If the people running GARRA are tying to impress, anyone, they best do their best to hide this sad fact from the public.
Maybe they should require the cars to use engines from companies that sell "Rebuilt" engines. To equalize an engine that makes too much power, they could force them to run a two-barrel carb.

There is supposedly some new manufacturers coming soon.

As for chassis, i dont know why the regulate so tightly, especially when three of them are sinking quickly with no bilge pumps to even them out...

Gee, they run engines any back-yard garage builder could out do and you wonder why they limit the chassis?
Just think about that one for awhile.

[GT1]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Or improvetheir car, maybe build an evolution version. No wait, that's not allowed as per the rules.

Thats another problem with the restrictive formula. You can do some things but when you have to have your designs "pre approved", then that can open a whole new can of worms on what you can and can't do and what is considered an upgrade and what violates that "approved" design.

[GT1]

Originally posted by Fogelhund
So, you are certain you know who has been testing, and who hasn't been testing lately? In this case, you would be wrong.

Those original drawings of the Fabcar look fantastic. It is a shame that the cars didn't look like that.

Cy - There appears to be some latitude to reworking some parts of the car, particularly in handling.

Hey if they are making an effort thats great! I am not Multimatic's confidont but I do remember last year after the Rolex 24 Multimatic th emselves quit running the car and let anyone with a brain drive one.

It was mentioned that it was to entice new buyers or "advertising". I remember someone on one board said "Hey, wouldn't a car that actually ran on the track being developed in racing circumstances be better 'advertising?'"

Speedsource obviously is aware of the work that has been done...Trembly posted on the G/A board that both cars were for sale...after denying not long before they had any problem with the car.

When you dump something, it isn't always the results you get then and there. Its what you see in teh future and what you expect in the pipeline. Not sports car releated of itself but the same situation, I was reading in Rahal's book that it wasn't the results themselves in 1994 that caused him to dump Honda, it was that Honda weren't prepared to do what he thought was nessecary for the future as far as building materials (note Honda did succed well so perhaps that might be a bit of an omen).

The point is, after buying two brand new cars, they dumped them three races into the new season (and you could count the end of last year). Its not always "what is happening now". Its "What are they gonna do about it".

I hope Multimatic gets back in the game instead of wasting the "approved" builders list.

[Danske]

Most if not all of the DPs have been going through revisions. They've been losing weight and changing aero pieces; I don't think the Brumos Fabcars have had the same rear end for more than a few races in a row. The suspensions can also be freely modified/redesigned. We'll see if Porsche's rumored input to the Fabcar reaps any rewards. The individual teams have also been modifying the cars independently of the factories. So the DPs have been changing and getting faster, but the trick is still to get faster faster than the competition. Yes, there's a core design they can't freely modify, but it's not as if there is no chassis development at all.

The BMW engine actually got a bigger restrictor in the last revision, but it hasn't seemed to have given the G&W BMW Doran a large advantage. The Chevy/Pontiac lost RPM but it hasn't put the SunTrust car off the pace even relative to the other Rileys. The Bell Pontiac Doran was also near the front at the last race at Watkins Glen until the tire gambit bit them. In an interview Tremblay fingered lack of development of the Ford powerplant as the cause for his Multimatic woes and that he (or maybe Mears) wasn't happy with the planned schedule for improvement (but at least there was one).

So it is possible that the used Speedsource Ford Multimatics will increase in value by year's end.

[Chevyguy]

billnchristi, you say that anybody can submit an engine, yet I beleived it had to be in production. Now anybody can take an engine that is in production, I prefer the Caddy Northstar, and get it approved, but your post almost implied that a homemade engine could be approved and run in the DP class.