Fuel limits

[MulsanneMike]

Originally posted by MorganFan

Is it not possible to reduce the levels of aero amongst the current cars to at least offset the power reductions? I keep hearing arguments that this would lead to cars that would be ballistic down the straights and would be heading into corners at uncontrollable speeds, leading to huge accidents, fatalaties, and (maybe) global famine. Ok, I made the last one up. Surely it's the responsibility of the driver to drive the car appropriately, no amount of power reduction prevents a car from being thrown into a corner at too high a speed.

Actually that's exactely what has been done with the new regs. Downforce has been reduced by 1/4, drag increased by 1/10, and power upped from 550 to 650+. So the cars are rocket ships in the straights (note the Nasamax topping the traps at Monza and Le Mans) and squirrly in the corners. Lap times aren't too shabby either considering no one has built a specific to the rules car yet (just hybrids--Lucchini's LMP2 is the first new car) so the cars that are running are full of compromise are less than optimal.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
Actually that's exactely what has been done with the new regs. Downforce has been reduced by 1/4, drag increased by 1/10, and power upped from 550 to 650+. So the cars are rocket ships in the straights (note the Nasamax topping the traps at Monza and Le Mans) and squirrly in the corners. Lap times aren't too shabby either considering no one has built a specific to the rules car yet (just hybrids--Lucchini's LMP2 is the first new car) so the cars that are running are full of compromise are less than optimal.

With the drag increase it is status quo.

Eliminate the diffuser, and unrestrict tire and wheel size.
Then it will be up to the team to decide how much tire drag (rolling resistance) works best for them.

Bob

[Fieldgate]

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
Actually that's exactely what has been done with the new regs. Downforce has been reduced by 1/4, drag increased by 1/10, and power upped from 550 to 650+. So the cars are rocket ships in the straights (note the Nasamax topping the traps at Monza and Le Mans) and squirrly in the corners. Lap times aren't too shabby either considering no one has built a specific to the rules car yet (just hybrids--Lucchini's LMP2 is the first new car) so the cars that are running are full of compromise are less than optimal.

Wait until you see the new Lola. If figures are to be believed, it should go round corners pretty well.

(A proper) conversation with "a Bloke who knows a bit about aero" was that with a proper programme in a tunnel, you should get back the down-force quite easily from the new rules.

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by FIRE

But like 917Addicted already says: Fuel limitation would a advantage for Audi compared to engines like Judd and Zytek.

Any limitation will be an avantage for a manufacturer versus privaters, it does'nt make difference.

but don't forget that , "on-the-paper also", a rotary engine has a worst fuel consumption than a "classical" engine.
BUT Mazda has winned against Jaguar.

I see to explanation :
- the first 12 hours there was a huge fight between Jaguar and Mercedes; and both have spent toomuch fuel. So later it has been necessary to reduce the speed. The Mazda has been more constant, always borderline but never on the wrong side.

- second and probably main reason : the drivers have made the difference, with a very efficient driving. It probably explain why this Mazda was really better than the 2 others

So the "paper reality" is not always true

[917Addicted]

Originally posted by pounetbf
Any limitation will be an avantage for a manufacturer versus privaters, it does'nt make difference.

but don't forget that , "on-the-paper also", a rotary engine has a worst fuel consumption than a "classical" engine.
BUT Mazda has winned against Jaguar.

I see to explanation :
- the first 12 hours there was a huge fight between Jaguar and Mercedes; and both have spent toomuch fuel. So later it has been necessary to reduce the speed. The Mazda has been more constant, always borderline but never on the wrong side.

- second and probably main reason : the drivers have made the difference, with a very efficient driving. It probably explain why this Mazda was really better than the 2 others

So the "paper reality" is not always true

Well, if i'm correct, the Jags and Mercedes were overweight (something like 1000Kg), which the Mazda wasn't (850Kg maybe). And the Mercs weren't victorious because at the 22th hour, its leading car blew up his engine, but yes, the history is full of ifs )

[PascaLM]

Both restrictors rules and limited fuel consumption could be merged in order to strengthen the technical interest of sportscar racing, above all LMP.
This could give more freedom for aerodynamics and engines.
Yes, no ?...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by PascaLM
Both restrictors rules and limited fuel consumption could be merged in order to strengthen the technical interest of sportscar racing, above all LMP.
This could give more freedom for aerodynamics and engines.
Yes, no ?...

What do you mean by merged?

[pounetbf]

If you mean "use in the same time" the 2 rules, it is useless :
- or you will not have enough fuel to use the available air,
- or you will not have enough air to burn the available fuel

in such a case you will add the negatives points of each rule and not the positive ones

and if you have a restrictor, you will limit the possibility to re-start "full speed and more" for a car which have been stopped and delayed.

[Asa]

I think the problem we have right now is that VAG's turbo will be an advantage to them.

But we could get around by allowing alternate fuels to join. Say we know what amount of inherent energy each kind of fuel has, so we could fix a maximum energy, then according to this maximum energy value (X joules), we decide how much fuel each type of engine gets, say petrol you get Y litres, diesel you get Z litres, LPG you get K litres... etc. But the maximum energy available for everyone is still the same.

I think it will interest other manufacturers to join.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by Asa
I think the problem we have right now is that VAG's turbo will be an advantage to them.

But we could get around by allowing alternate fuels to join. Say we know what amount of inherent energy each kind of fuel has, so we could fix a maximum energy, then according to this maximum energy value (X joules), we decide how much fuel each type of engine gets, say petrol you get Y litres, diesel you get Z litres, LPG you get K litres... etc. But the maximum energy available for everyone is still the same.

I think it will interest other manufacturers to join.

Heck, why not just mandate everyone uses a Model-T four cylinder Ford and gets 300 gallons for a 200 mile race.
You would get just a much excitement and developement of internal cubustion design from that as you would from the spec. series listed above.

Bob

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Heck, why not just mandate everyone uses a Model-T four cylinder Ford and gets 300 gallons for a 200 mile race.
You would get just a much excitement and developement of internal cubustion design from that as you would from the spec. series listed above.

Bob

Very bad choice !

tooooo much gallon, 20 gallon for a 300 miles race is better !

and by defining an engine you limit the development possibilities...

[marcush.]

honestly ,we´ll race anything....but with fuel restrictions you tend to get boring races as everyone tries to go as slow as possible to conserve fuel.
In endurance racing as well as F1 it is a good idea to look very long at the fuelconsumption versus laptime theme
anyway.Going a tad slower maybe the faster way to get to the finish .quite often it is the only way to get to the checker...but that´s another story.

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by marcush.
honestly ,we´ll race anything....but with fuel restrictions you tend to get boring races as everyone tries to go as slow as possible to conserve fuel.

I have seen all the Le mans groupC races, (and Spa, and Brands Hatch) and none of those races were boring, starting from the the 2 Joest victories against the Porsche official 956 and finishin with the Mazda victory
and they were with fuel restriction

Don't forget than an engine run with fuel + air. The limitation can be on the air (by a restrictor or a limit of engine capacity) or can be on the fuel, the result is the same : there is a limit in power.

But limiting the air is a permanent instantaneous limit : you cannot decide to save air or waste air at the begginning of the race. Non-consumed air is "definitively lost" air.

On the contrary, the team and the driver can choose the way they will use , save or "overspend" the fuel depending of the race and car situation. This give quite a lot more strategic possibilities.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by pounetbf
I have seen all the Le mans groupC races, (and Spa, and Brands Hatch) and none of those races were boring, starting from the the 2 Joest victories against the Porsche official 956 and finishin with the Mazda victory
and they were with fuel restriction

Don't forget than an engine run with fuel + air. The limitation can be on the air (by a restrictor or a limit of engine capacity) or can be on the fuel, the result is the same : there is a limit in power.

But limiting the air is a permanent instantaneous limit : you cannot decide to save air or waste air at the begginning of the race. Non-consumed air is "definitively lost" air.

On the contrary, the team and the driver can choose the way they will use , save or "overspend" the fuel depending of the race and car situation. This give quite a lot more strategic possibilities.

I think what marcush is saying is: with the fuel limits they race at cruise velocities for the first 90% of the race and then, depending on fuel left push hard, only if possible, during the last ten percent.

With out the fuel limits, it is push as hard as you can for the whole race.

I am fairly sure you remember when Dan Gurney used to be the designated rabbit during an endurance race, and race at sprint speeds hoping the competitors leading cars would suckered into trying to keep up and blow their engines.

Now that was racing!
Bob

[marcush.]

exactly,bob.my words.