PRODRIVE F1 bid

[Oldtony]

Well bornracer, CAMS, TEGA, AVESCO et al have not been able to sort out who is actually the owner, the team, the franchise holder or the entrant in the V8SC series in Australia. The reason I mentioned Prodriv calling in a Mr Walkinshaw as consultant. Maybe FIA have better legal advisors or more ability to slope the playing field, move the goal posts or otherwise change the rules to stop such things happening. Asuming of course that they want to.

[Teretonga]

I actually think Old Tony may be correct and I also believe that it would, could and should be legal.
It would be just as legal for Ferrari to enter under the Maserati name should they find themselves in similar circumstances. I'd have no problem with it at all.
The FIA would have a very difficult job to prevent it under EU common law.

[Born Racer]

Why would you have no problem with it? If they´re banned and they can carry on, what is the point in banning them?!

[Teretonga]

Maybe I don't believe they should be banned...
Maybe I believe the FIA is operating on a matter that is a civil matter and outside its jurisdiction (regardless of what rules it has made for itself)...

Maybe I believe that the situation is not all it appears to be...
Maybe the stance taken over this matter is at odds with other actions in matters of some similar natures that makes the FIA's actions inconsistent with it's actions in past disputes....

I don't believe the FIA is infallible nor do I believe that it has a given riight to rule and reign as it pleases on international motorsport. It is virtually a self appointed body and has taken jurisdiction upon itself many times in the past.

Some of it's authority is by default, not by delegation or appointment in some areas and I would wnat to test and contend for that authority or assumed authority...

[Gt_R]

I believe that FIA has a good degree of jurisdiction over F1, and that it's a championship which teams subscribe to.

The theft of the information is a civil matter (hence being pursued via the appropriate courts), but because it affects the sporting integrity of F1 as a whole, FIA saw it appropriate to step in and restore the credibility, just as any sporting regulatory authority will do. It's hard to imagine say Liverpool just ignore FIFA and make illegal approaches to other players, etc, acts which defied the sporting purposes, and just brush off FIFA for having no say in a team's management issues..

Whether they make right calls or not, it's another issue. But i think FIA has often tried hard, and it's not easy. Referees make wrong calls, and FIA isn't all perfect anyways.

I agree with you that there is a probability that Mclaren hasn't at all touch the information (as initially suggested by Ron), and that what appears may not be 100% of the truth (yet). But would you also give the same allowance, that maybe, just maybe... Mclaren may have done something inappropriate, and if found to be so, then deserve a certain appropriate degree of punishment? That perhaps, just perhaps, that Mclaren did do wrong (not intentional, but a grave mishandling of situation) that caused this outcome, and not because other teams (Renault/Ferrari) or FIA are intentionally victimizing Mclaren?

Because right now, it's Mclaren's side of the story which has many loopholes and dubious points... such as how Ron insisted nobody beyond Mike knew anything yet suddenly, news of Alonso/Pedro's email surface which doesn't tally with Ron's assertions. And that the probability of a team not knowing and using that information (beyond just one black sheep) is increasingly smaller.

That said, i wish to stress that even if Mclaren is found guilty, its NOT an intentional means to cheat (ie Ron did not plan to acquire it), but rather... circumstances led them to be possession (through Mike) and they (as a team, drivers included) just didn't react appropriately and justly, and rather, potentially use it to serve their own benefits.

You know, from this incident, a part of me feel for Ron's loyalty and commitment to the team, this degree of commitment which fuelled his fierce defence of his team against the outside pressures. It really is a testimonial to Ron's strong relationship with his team. But another part of me felt that this protective nature (while commendable) is also perhaps his weakness, that he refuse to accept that there are factors in his team which did let him down, that there are faults in the procedures within the team, and that the team had because of it, run foul and into the arms of trouble. rather, he just kept believing in his innocent team being victimized.

Nobody likes to see this happen in F1, whether you are a Mclaren fan, Ferrari fan, casual fan or motorsport fan in general. But due to the nature of the sports, and that media interest in it, it's inevitable that such a case has to be put through the authorities, and that controversy will arise out of it.

[Teretonga]

I have no problem accepting that the behaviour of both parties on various aspects of the case is far from perfect and that McLaren may have have committed some very basic scew-ups here. I could also say that I suspect Ferrari has done something similar but in a different way.

I have called attention to some aspects of Ferrari's case because it seemed to me that some things were being taken for granted as fact when I believe they are insinuated or alledged but have yet to be substantiated.

What I am reluctant to to do is sit in judgement on that case overall because I don't believe that I, (or any forum observer) have all the fact. similarly I don't believe the FIA fully comprehends that it only has a part of the story and it concerns mme that the decision (whatever it is) may prove to be premature and harmful to one or both parties or even the FIA itself. It goes without saying that it is harming the sport and we may see some of the fallout appear over the next two years in a prolonged cancerous slide rather than some immediate more measureable and more easily identified fashion.

[Oldtony]

My comments on Prodrive/McMerc were meant more as an indication of where things could go and not as a reason to import the heated debate on the rights or wrongs of the Stepnygate affair into this thread.
That aside if the FIA in it's wisdom (or lack thereof depending on your perception) should decide to suspend McLaren for 2008 what happens to the innocent people who are designers, technicians, suppliers and workers who had no part in, or knowledge of the affair? In fact what happens to Mercedes involvement?
FIA is the sanctioning body representing the international motorsport community. It comprises delegates from the sancyioning bodies in each country. You can complain about the decisions, the way it is ellected or the behavior of it's delegates, but you cannot say it does not have authority.
Give those facts, if FIA suspends McLaren, it would be logical for the assets and personel to be absorbed into Prodrive. The result would be the punishment of those found to have been in the wrong, the Mclaren management group, without totally wiping out the innocent parties involved in the team.
And just to keep this discusion as ubiased as possible lets assume that Ferrari cooked this whole thing up as a form of entrapment, then the logic would be to allow their assets and personel to form a team called say Maserati.
Heated discussion on who did what to who should be in the Stepney/Couglan thread.

[chillibowl]

interesting points Oldtony.

certainly the FIA would prevent such an overt circumvention of a suspension even if the teams involved found a legal way to do it. violating the spirit of the ban rather than the letter of it, i would think. but just having the key staff move out on "loan" or something to prodrive for a year (if just to suplement their income) does sound crafty enough to be considered a good idea for F1

but even if a ban comes down, its not like Mclaren would just stop making F1 cars unless they were planning on pulling out all together. they have to build an 08 car in order to have one for 2009. that said there would have to be some sort of compromise to let them still sell customer chassis/engine packages as no one has suggested that the 08 development is a result of the spying.

[Teretonga]

If McLaren formally closed it's departments down, leased it's premises to a new group, passed the sponsors and its staff on to the new group, that didn't have the principals in charge (eg, DR not RD) then it's not McLaren. You cannot get past that.

RD could take a 'holiday' for a year....

Effectively to do it they would have to ban McLaren AND the other group!

[Teretonga]

I dont want to hijack the thread and take it off topic but just to reinforce what I said above

It is virtually a self appointed body and has taken jurisdiction upon itself many times in the past.

I am not alone in this point of view. See the link.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=32718

[duke_toaster]

I personally think that - unless something absolutely incriminating (talking about big pirated components) is found - McLaren should not be banned from 2008. Otherwise, if they are found guilty I personally think they should be disqualified from this year's WCC, but LH and FA should not be banned from the WDC. The drivers probably didn't even know until it appeared in the papers.

However, I am utterly puzzled by the decision to find McLaren guilty but not to fine them because there is no evidence. Surely the point is that if you don't have evidence, you find them not guilty ...

[BeeJ]

A big rumour doing the rounds here is that Prodrive will be buying/leasing the old Jaguar Browns Lane Plant in Coventry. It Already has a wind tunnel, would need upgrading put may be not need planning permission and also a new road system was put in to the back of the plant to releive traffic going past residents.

As I said only a rumour.

[chunterer]

Not sure if yesterday's events will have any bearing on this entry or not.

On one hand if McLaren were thrown out, then I believe we'd have seen the outfit redubbed Prodrive Mercedes, using McLaren's paid up staff for an indefinite period.

However McLaren are still very much F1WC entries for next season.

My take is that now if anything Ron might ask for even more money from DR/His investors to run the kit, or Mercedes will get involved to subsidise any deal that's in waiting so that they've got their reputation and bases covered should there be any further PR fall out over the winter when Ron slaps in his appeal.

So we may see 2 Merc powered teams.

[Teretonga]

I think it highly likely that if Prodrive do a deal for McLaren chassis the deal will include Mercedes engines.
Cars are so much a unit these days that slotting in a different engine may drastically compromise the design. Example:RB3 Renault vs RB3 Ferrari (STR)

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by chunterer

On one hand if McLaren were thrown out, then I believe we'd have seen the outfit redubbed Prodrive Mercedes, using McLaren's paid up staff for an indefinite period.

What about McProdrive?

Any word for drive lineup? Marko Asmer would be a very good possibility, good talent, dominated British F3 this year and tested an F1 car a couple of years back IIRC.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by BeeJ

A big rumour doing the rounds here is that Prodrive will be buying/leasing the old Jaguar Browns Lane Plant in Coventry. It Already has a wind tunnel, would need upgrading put may be not need planning permission and also a new road system was put in to the back of the plant to releive traffic going past residents.

As I said only a rumour.

Browns Lane has a wind tunnel, I never knew (or saw) that! I bet it aint F1 spec.

[M Coupe]

There is no wind tunnel at Browns lane.

[BeeJ]

Was when I went on a tour. Would not say it was F1 specific but they gave a demo of it with at the time an XJS in the tunnel.