Gravel Traps, is there a better way?

[brands hatch]

That green strip has been reduced in size since those photo's were taken.

[The SpeCTator]

One key point in favour of gravel that has so far been ignored is motorcycles, it is apparently the preferred method of retardation for our friends on, or in this case off, 2 wheels.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by brands hatch

That green strip has been reduced in size since those photo's were taken.

I wondered that. I haven't seen it for over a year.

Struggling to find a picture...

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by The SpeCTator

One key point in favour of gravel that has so far been ignored is motorcycles, it is apparently the preferred method of retardation for our friends on, or in this case off, 2 wheels.

Which is why there's a lot more gravel at Silverstone now (after they secured Moto GP). I've seen some pretty spectacular mechanical failures that have been halted by gravel at places like Brooklands, Copse & Bridge, which would have ended up a heavy impact with a tyre barrier head first without the gravel.

Ideally, as WFM has said, tarmac run off with gravel beyond that (as at Brooklands) is the safest option (for drivers) in my opinion but there's just not room at some circuits for this. Plus, it puts the marshal's posts & spectator viewing too far from the track. It really can get quite scary having acres of gravel between you & safety when dealing with a stricken car at somewhere like Woodcote or Vale.

[Dave Brand]

The problem with gravel traps is that they have to be a catch-all (pun intended!) solution to a variety of problems - single-seaters, saloons, bikes, go-karts etc. will all behave differently. A given combination of aggregate size, depth, degree of compaction & other criteria may work well with one kind of vehicle but be useless with another; on circuits used for different types of racing there will inevitably be a compromise.

If space allows, enough run-off, be it grass or tarmac, between the track & the gravel trap can substantially reduce the number of vehicles actually going into the gravel.

Gravel traps are a necessary evil where space doesn't allow adequate run-off - start from scratch & you can design a circuit without them, as was done at Anglesey. Existing circuits don't have that luxury!

[GORDON STREETER]

The test track up the road to me in Spain has the advantage of being built on very sandy soil with very few obstacles to hit.
The sand tends to slow things down pretty quick without damage and personally I have only seen one car rolled and that was a works car being tested to the limit that was turned over on the tarmac anyway.
There are a lot of bike track days throughout the year and the safety record is pretty good considering the amount of "nutters" on machines far too powerful for their talent and even then most tend to keep upright when they go off the circuit.
I've seen a fair number of high and low side crashes over the years including works testers but no sand or gravel traps can stop that
http://www.tracksense.co.uk/almeriadetails.htm

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I wondered that. I haven't seen it for over a year.

Struggling to find a picture...

Paddock hill's tarmac bit 2011. Professional driver using every inch.
Illegally. Sorry, allegedly




I have to "work" that area, and I'd prefer to see more tarmac, but even with the rule enforcement that is supposedly being more rigorously enforced this year it does seem to depend on who is running the show.

[White flag man]

I read somewhere that, this year, the MSA stewards have been asked to make sure to Clerk of the meeting enforces these rules, and to report them if they don't.

[Steven Humphrey]

I was at Copse for Britcar a couple of weeks ago & the rules were pretty strictly enforced with several black & white flags, drive through penalties & disqualifications. I can't remember the exact order of penalties but it was basically 4 strikes & you're out.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Steven Humphrey

it was basically 4 strikes & you're out.

According to the MSA instructions it ought to be the first 4WO for free and then a further four will lead to exclusion from a race. Applying anywhere on the circuit so not just 4WO in the same place, i.e first 4WO at Paddock Hill, Brands - no penalty, second 4WO at Graham Hill Bend - B/W flag....3rd at Paddock Hill etc. etc.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Piglet

According to the MSA instructions it ought to be the first 4WO for free and then a further four will lead to exclusion from a race. Applying anywhere on the circuit so not just 4WO in the same place, i.e first 4WO at Paddock Hill, Brands - no penalty, second 4WO at Graham Hill Bend - B/W flag....3rd at Paddock Hill etc. etc.

It's:

First offence, no action.
Second offence, black & white flag.
Third offence, five second penalty.
Fourth offence, drive through penalty.
Fifth offence, possible exclusion from race.

Exceeding circuit limits is defined as all four wheels over the white line.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

It's:

First offence, no action.
Second offence, black & white flag.
Third offence, five second penalty.
Fourth offence, drive through penalty.
Fifth offence, possible exclusion from race.

Exceeding circuit limits is defined as all four wheels over the white line.

What happens if you do it numerous times on the same lap. Do the same rules apply?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by White flag man

What happens if you do it numerous times on the same lap. Do the same rules apply?

Every instance of four wheels off will be reported - doesn't matter where or when. Really go for it & you coud be excluded on your first lap!

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Every instance of four wheels off will be reported - doesn't matter where or when. Really go for it & you coud be excluded on your first lap!

Thanks Dave, I'll keep a look out for that.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

It's:

First offence, no action.
Second offence, black & white flag.
Third offence, five second penalty.
Fourth offence, drive through penalty.
Fifth offence, possible exclusion from race.

Exceeding circuit limits is defined as all four wheels over the white line.

Ah, I missed the 5 sec penalty! It's good to see it enforced but I do wonder how easy it will be to police at a meeting that's struggling for marshal numbers. I've been on post alone a couple of times (usually Rockingham) and trying to flag, watching out for any infringements while operating a radio is quite tricky!

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Paul D

What's the stuff they use that's like some sort of a grid that grass grows through? It's in use at Oulton, on the outside of Old Hall and maybe Druids. It looks like grass more or less, but offers more consistent grip, but not so much grip that you can simply keep your foot in as if you were still on track. So you do have to lift, and are therefore penalised for your mistake, if you end up out there on it, but it offers a chance of stopping before you hit something solid if you happen to be spinning onto it, or running out of brakes.

Grasscrete, or some variation thereof. It's basically a perforated concrete slab with a lattice of perforations into which grass seed is planted.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

Grasscrete, or some variation thereof. It's basically a perforated concrete slab with a lattice of perforations into which grass seed is planted.

Oulton uses the plastic version.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

It's:

First offence, no action.
Second offence, black & white flag.
Third offence, five second penalty.
Fourth offence, drive through penalty.
Fifth offence, possible exclusion from race.

Exceeding circuit limits is defined as all four wheels over the white line.

This kind of approach has been used at places for sometime. We had similar advice at Spa about eight years ago - I came with diagrams of the important corners (bus stop and Eau rouge). Quite easy to understand, even for a driver.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Quite easy to understand, even for a driver.

I'm a Post Chief (observer in Blue Book terminology) & even I can understand it!