Who makes the decision?

[numbersix]

Circuit cameras seem to be under fire from Observers who are getting 'upset' because of the delay in calling a Race Stop or Safety Car, while Race Control view the video footage in order to confirm or overrule the Observer's decision.

The question is, like the blue flags at Grands Prix, is technology moving all the decision-making to RC? And is this a good thing?

[EvilPumpkin]

Well in fairness, those decisions have always been made in the tower - and let's be honest, we all know that with certain clubs or at certain events, you can be pretty sure you'll be overruled.

As always, it really depends on the relationship the marshals have with race control.

We had the same issue at Mondello when the cameras first went in - however, it was quickly determined that cameras do not show everything and after a couple of near misses, things settled down a bit.

You'll always get people in the tower who think they know better than the trackside marshals. It was going on before cameras and it still happens now. Even with flags. I won't go into detail as I'll only get in trouble, but I have heard some absolute howlers coming over the radio at some circuits with flagging instructions that are either totally unnecessary or are actually wrong!

At the end of the day, if organisers delay or refuse a stop and something bad happens, it's them that winds up in the Coroner's court explaining why they totally disregarded the advice of the Marshals on scene.

It's harsh, but it's simply the reality. Do I approve - probably not. Can anything be done about it? Nope.
They're very handy for verifying race reports and stuff though.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Circuit cameras seem to be under fire from Observers who are getting 'upset' because of the delay in calling a Race Stop or Safety Car, while Race Control view the video footage in order to confirm or overrule the Observer's decision.

The question is, like the blue flags at Grands Prix, is technology moving all the decision-making to RC? And is this a good thing?

In no particular order:-

As mentioned in other threads, flag marshals make the blue flag/light decisions at the GP. RC do not make those decisions.

Other decisions, such as stops, SCs, dispatching rescue vehicles have *always* been made in race control. There is no such thing as "overruling" a PC.

Before cameras, RC had to go solely on what the PC reports and suggests to make a decision. Spend some time in RC, and you will discover that there are inconsistencies in what different PC's report and ask for. Video footage is just an extra source of information for clerks to go on. You will find that clerks have an idea of how much the opinion/interpretation of differing PCs is aligned with their own, and 'trust' some more than others.

PC's generally look at things just from the safety aspect, and take a cautious approach. Clerks, I expect, are more likely to take other factors into account, but at the end of the day, since it is their responsibility, it is their decision.

[Bodysnatcher]

I've learned to live with it. Worked with the spy above me for years.

The worst I can say is Clerks that you don't work with on a regular basis can be trying. At best those whose trust you have built up won't question most decisions.

It can be annoying and demotivating that every call you make can be met with "the Clerk is looking at it on the screen" but I've come round to fact that the final decision is theirs. (However I may rant a bit after a few of these..) I guess it helps to remember that your decisions are recommendations rather than demands for most things.

OTOH - I've called for a red/ rescue unit for a very heavy F3 hit into the wall, to be told that on screen the car is'nt in the wall and all looks normal for a car in the gravel. They'd zoomed in on one of the cars involved and had'nt seen there was another. Point is cameras have failings too.

But like EP says tho', no point in *****ing about those bad days - all you end up getting is a phone call or an email saying "somebody tells me says you've said xyz on 10ths"

[The Fat Clerk]

Observers are the 'eyes and ears' of the Clerk of the Course, no more no less
I value your opinions, and your judgements but the buck stop with.............

Remember there are other factors to consider: time/distance/television et al in no particular order

[numbersix]

I just wanted to get a broader picture. Personally I have no issue with RC making decisions because I know and understand they have the final responsibility and I don't take it personally.

If I call a race stop, and a delay by RC causes a crisis on track, then the phlegmatic part of me says, "I called a stop, ain't my problem no more." On the other hand my personal desire to avoid anyone getting hurt will cause me to scream many unrepeatable expletives in the direction of head office!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by numbersix

If I call a race stop, and a delay by RC causes a crisis on track, then the phlegmatic part of me says, "I called a stop, ain't my problem no more." On the other hand my personal desire to avoid anyone getting hurt will cause me to scream many unrepeatable expletives in the direction of head office!

yes and yes.

[LandieLad]

The over-riding concern must be "Is human life in immediate danger". If that is so then there can be no argument or decision that can over-ride a request for a race stop.

[Gas bag]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Observers are the 'eyes and ears' of the Clerk of the Course, no more no less
I value your opinions, and your judgements but the buck stop with.............

Remember there are other factors to consider: time/distance/television et al in no particular order

I was at Oulton Park at the weekend,and a decision to red flag a session was called by the CofC, BEFORE i had finished my call to race control with regard to the incident,and if i'm honest i wouldn't have called a red flag as other sessions during the weekend where cars were in similar positions after crashing on my post were not red flagged by me!
In that instance i feel the circuit cameras helped him come to his conclusion.
But hey as 'The Fat Clerk' says it's his sphericals on the line,not mine.

[Luke Souch]

After working in RC over the years doing various different duties I have worked with a lot of different Clerks. This has helped me to learn how each one operates; believe it or not they don't all work in the same way. For example, I know one Clerk who often will not use the cameras. He believes that if a PC asks for a red flag, likewise a SC, they will get it - so one point from this is make sure you need it before you ask for it! You don't know which Clerk is clerking which races.

Another Clerk that I have worked with will consider who is reporting it, as much as I hate to say it, there are some very good PC's and some, well, not so good ones. <-- Make what you will of that! I have experienced a call to RC from a PC asking for a red when a car had spun and managed to park it with two wheels in the gravel. Did the Clerk use the camera? Yes. Did he ask who the PC was? Yes. Did this reflect his decision? Yes. Was he right to let it do so? I think so.
Talking from a different perspective however, I have been in a situation where there was quite a serious incident at the Silverstone Classic meeting last year with the E-Type race. A car had spun on the artificial grass, spinning back onto the racing line he was collected by another car with a fair old whack! A hard enough whack that the front left quarter of the car had been ripped away and flung onto the track leaving the to e-types on the run off. Yellows were out (frantically waved may I add), marshals were trackside and cars were still overtaking, running wide and basically not responding to the flag signals. The PC and IO had both asked for a red flag - did they get it? No! Why? The clerk was using the cameras - he could only look at the incident itself and not what was happening around it. There were many comments from the incident team saying they felt unsafe and it was ridiculous that they had to clear it up whilst the car were literally still racing. I have no idea who was clerking that race.

Finally, I will say, unfortunately that more and more Clerks are going by what they want to happen and not listening to the PC's i.e. the eyes and ears and more and more Clerks aren't following the correct procedures. It also concerns me that I know more about the "blue book" than some Clerks - I don't even own a copy!

[stevebrown]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Well in fairness, those decisions have always been made in the tower - and let's be honest, we all know that with certain clubs or at certain events, you can be pretty sure you'll be overruled.

As always, it really depends on the relationship the marshals have with race control.

Anyone remember the Dan Eaves incident At Snetterton in 2001? Got overruled three times by RC! What a can of worms that opened at the time.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Luke Souch

There were many comments from the incident team saying they felt unsafe and it was ridiculous that they had to clear it up whilst the car were literally still racing.

If you feel unsafe you have to take the decision to remove yourself from trackside. Hopefully under the instructions of the I/O, but you can still advise him why you're leaving. It's not a common occurrence, but I have done it when the actions of the other drivers compromised safety. At that point there is no option but to neutralise the race. We also requested that the message got back to the other drivers why they were halted.

[Mark Mitchell]

I had 3 red flags at Donington yesterday - none actually called for by me! Not disputing the actions at all but IMO we weren't given time to see what the marshals could do once at the scene. I also asked for a fire tender to attend one incident..........still waiting!

[MacGWC]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I had 3 red flags at Donington yesterday - none actually called for by me! Not disputing the actions at all but IMO we weren't given time to see what the marshals could do once at the scene. I also asked for a fire tender to attend one incident..........still waiting!

Some years ago we had a series of very useful MSA training seminars, where Clerks met with Observers. As someone doing both jobs at that time, I found it informative and interesting. The BMMC asked recently for another series of similar seminars, to improve the communication and understanding between the Clerk and his/her "eyes and ears on the circuit".

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I also asked for a fire tender to attend one incident..........still waiting!

That sounds more like Croft, but that's nothing to do with it not being scrambled...

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by MacGWC

Some years ago we had a series of very useful MSA training seminars, where Clerks met with Observers. As someone doing both jobs at that time, I found it informative and interesting. The BMMC asked recently for another series of similar seminars, to improve the communication and understanding between the Clerk and his/her "eyes and ears on the circuit".

Sounds like a very good idea, as someone who still does both roles I'd be all for it.

[johngee]

I totally agree with The Fat Clerk - we're all 'marshals' at the end of the day - we just do different jobs and anything that prevents an 'us and them culture' should be encouraged.