[Official] Rate the race: Italian Grand Prix

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

While everyone calls it boring, there were 15 cars still on the lead lap and the entire top 6 were within 10 seconds at the end.

Marussia and Caterham were lapped only once, and towards the end of the race. Monza was a race where Minardi (now STR) regularly would get lapped 2 or 3 times, at least! And that was only if they actually managed to finish the race at all!

Stop the whinging!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

What we had before they changed the tyres, mate.

But they (FIA/FOTA/FOM) changed the tyres because many 'fans' complained about the processional racing, as did the teams.

FOTA, in particular, were taking much more notice of what F1 fans wanted. Now it would seem that these same fans don't like closer racing?!

[Bononi]

As a fan I did say nothing...

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Marbot

But they (FIA/FOTA/FOM) changed the tyres because many 'fans' complained about the processional racing, as did the teams.

FOTA, in particular, were taking much more notice of what F1 fans wanted. Now it would seem that these same fans don't like closer racing?!

Just doesn't seem to be a great deal of movement, and when that does happen, it's often in the huge double DRS zones.

With the tyres as they were before, you'd get passing generated through differing strategies/wear.

I guess because it wasn't as blatant on the eye, it made it much more pleasurable to watch.

But seeing that flap open on the rear wing, and watching a driver be overtaken half way down the DRS straight, meh, doesn't do anything for me.

Selby

[AngusJ]

F1 went through a long spell of boredom in the 90's, then things got better. That pendulum seems to be swinging back. Its totally predictable and scripted now. During the golden age anything could (and did) happen

[Casper]

Originally Posted by nicanary

You're right. F1 today is what happens when gifted designers and engineers take the rules to the limit, and produce the ultimate racing car. They're visually boring.

No, it is when designers & engineers are forced to deal with regulations that force them to make what is effectively a spec vehicle. No one is allowed to have any original thinking and they realize that to put something on a car that is different and will give them an edge will result in it being banned. Want some real racing? allow the engineers and designers to work within a looser set of regs and take away enough aero that they become largely but not solely dependent on mechanical grip. Racing today is not the spectacular thing to watch that it once was due to the cars being glued to the track by aero. You don't believe me? go back and have a look at footage when cars actually moved about their axis and the back was controlled by the right foot. Put simply the cars were spectacular to watch whether they won or not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

No, it is when designers & engineers are forced to deal with regulations that force them to make what is effectively a spec vehicle. No one is allowed to have any original thinking and they realize that to put something on a car that is different and will give them an edge will result in it being banned. Want some real racing? allow the engineers and designers to work within a looser set of regs and take away enough aero that they become largely but not solely dependent on mechanical grip. Racing today is not the spectacular thing to watch that it once was due to the cars being glued to the track by aero. You don't believe me? go back and have a look at footage when cars actually moved about their axis and the back was controlled by the right foot. Put simply the cars were spectacular to watch whether they won or not.

Can't say I disagree with any of this; F-ducts and double diffusers banned and what do they put in their place to spice up the action, DRS.

[Marbot]

Pirelli seem to be getting it in the neck again because some people* think that the racing has become "boring" now that Pirelli have gone back to the 2012 spec tyres. These are also possibly the same people* who were throwing their handbags at the TV every time a Pirelli tyre parted company from its wheel.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109903

I think that we should read "boring" as being Vettel pointing his finger at any camera lens that has become available to him over the last few weeks, which also means that Pirelli's 2013 tyres actually made for closer racing if you could be bothered to figure out who was where when the pit stops were happening. But normal service has now been resumed, so be more careful what you wish for.

* Who are these people?!!

With regard to DRS, and pretty much everything else in F1, except for money, it's the same for everyone. At least we have the possibility of an overtaking move even if it happens to be in a DRS zone. I would also say that DRS makes it possible to overtake in other areas of a track because it allows the following car to get closer to the rear of a car ahead even if no move was made in the DRS zone.

[JeremySmith]

This should be in the tyre thread ...I think the whole concept needs looking at again...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Can't say I disagree with any of this; F-ducts and double diffusers banned and what do they put in their place to spice up the action, DRS.

Well, DRS works!

Double diffusers, etc, increased the downforce of the cars, meaning that it was making overtaking more difficult when approaching corners that had previously allowed the cars to overtake. DRS does not do that, it's the opposite of that.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

This should be in the tyre thread ...I think the whole concept needs looking at again...

Well, it's all relevant to the general points of the posts made previous to that one. That is: People complaining about the quality, or lack thereof, of the racing. At some point someone was bound to mention 'tyres'.

A new "concept" you can see next season, when maybe, hopefully, the word 'engine' will be heard more often than either 'aerodynamics' or 'tyres'.

But even then, some people will still complain.

[JeremySmith]

It's broken at the moment isn't it let's face it ... How to put dumpy back together again?? I am not sure ...

This is not the thread to discuss this either really ...

I think most people are not happy with the gimmick factor that has been introduced into the sport ..

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Well, DRS works!

Double diffusers, etc, increased the downforce of the cars, meaning that it was making overtaking more difficult when approaching corners that had previously allowed the cars to overtake. DRS does not do that, it's the opposite of that.

According to Adrian Newey in this article from F1 Fanatic,

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/01/1...lp-overtaking/,

the double diffuser made no difference to the car's wake. I always thought the problem with the double diffuser was the increase in cornering speeds it produced.

DRS does work but that doesn't stop it being gimmicky and at the expense design/innovation. I think the growing spec aspect of the formula hasn't helped and was a contributing factor to the rather dull races at Spa and Monza. Hopefully, with the reg changes next year, things will improve as everyone will have a relatively clean slate.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

the double diffuser made no difference to the car's wake. I always thought the problem with the double diffuser was the increase in cornering speeds it produced.

If you can go into a corner more quickly, then that obviously makes it more difficult to overtake at. If you had unlimited downforce, then it would be single file only. So, apart from being a very expensive and time consuming way to gain a little more downforce, it was also reducing the cars ability to overtake, particularly when most teams had fitted them to their cars.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Hopefully, with the reg changes next year, things will improve as everyone will have a relatively clean slate.

"Improved" I used to watch Hungarian GPs when they actually were quite boring! As for GPs at Monza, if the Ferrari's broke down (yet again) everyone went home.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

If you can go into a corner more quickly, then that obviously makes it more difficult to overtake at. If you had unlimited downforce, then it would be single file only. So, apart from being a very expensive and time consuming way to gain a little more downforce, it was also reducing the cars ability to overtake, particularly when most teams had fitted them to their cars.

I thought the issue with increased cornering speeds was to do with safety rather than the ability to overtake. As it is, various innovations have been developed and subsequently banned and despite the use of KERS and DRS the Belgian and Italian GPs were two of the dullest I've seen in a long time.

[Born Racer]

Seven for me.

I had a good time watching it. Better than Spa, which was always a circuit I enjoyed watching the cars round regardless of the race quality (like Monaco), but which this year didn't stimulate my interest.

I would also bin DRS, as it's a typically F1-style convoluted solution to a fairly straightforward problem.