Palmer

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Sorry, it's clearly totally over your head as to the technicalities involved. He is learning lessons now that he should have learned long before F1 but he couldn't because of the simplistic cars he drove with minimal set up windows meaning the engineers need little real driver feedback. It's not whether or not he is good enough.

I suppose you either get how non-technical GP2 cars are compared to say pre-1995 F3000 was it you don't. Or FPA/Super FPA cars with only one set up - meaning you learn to drive but learn almost nothing about how to set a car up and give technical feedback to develop cars... Like Maldonado can undoubtedly drive but couldn't set up a dinner table as he has no feel or set up skills.

Rookies have screwed up when testing was a free-for-all and gone on to have decorated careers. Testing in this era is curtailed, Renault is a team in transition with an experienced teammate. That's the equation for Palmer and that's why Palmer's potential remains untested.

That's my point. I'm not making any other point. And my point stands.

That the single-make, single supplier, sterile ladder system is weak preparation to the challenges of F1? Sure. It's a point I've made myself. It's a reason I rarely watch ladder races these days when I used to follow it before. But I'll state also that you've got promise if you win GP2 notwithstanding its heavy inadequacies. There's a firm talent of some sort there if you do win that.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

That the single-make, single supplier, sterile ladder system is weak preparation to the challenges of F1? Sure. It's a point I've made myself. It's a reason I rarely watch ladder races these days when I used to follow it before. But I'll state also that you've got promise if you win GP2 notwithstanding its heavy inadequacies. There's a firm talent of some sort there if you do win that.

The fact that senior F1 team personnel, including the principals, make a point of watching/following the progress of the drivers in both GP2 and 3 is a testament to their belief that the racing does have credence.

[bella]

nothing else to add to peebee2's comments. don't claim mitigating circumstances - someone with his and his familys means can pick and choose their career in order to make themselves the best possible racer unlike the vast majority of his opponents. in doing what they thought was best, they got it wrong.

[chillibowl]

a bit fitting if Mags and Perez, both of whom got bounced from Mclaren after 1 season, wind up on the same team together. actually would enjoy seeing them take the fight to Mclaren next year!

[peebee2]

Some good points made. Sure people from F1 watch GP2 as these should be the next generation of drivers. I don't think I've ever seen a senior F1 person really watching GP3 though - they normally aren't even at the track at such unsociable times.

The original point I wanted to make was the disaster of drivers coming through having spent all their careers in fixed spec-cars.

We only now really have F3 as an open formula. We used to have FF in several placed worldwide but that was killed 3 years ago really. People may think F3 is just one car but really the set up permutations are massively higher than the spec-cars and most teams cars are different and there is a surprising amount of development (hence F3 experience is so valued by the F1 tech departments).

People complain all the time about the likes of Raikkonen, Massa, Button, Barrichello etc. etc. etc. etc. staying in F1 years longer than they should but that is a direct result of the likes of Palmer, Maldonado, Valsecchi et al arriving on the verge of F1 with no technical clue whatsoever.

The F1 teams would much rather save millions on quick and hungry young guys but they tear their hair out at having to waste resources training these kids things they should have learned much lower down the ladder.

[peebee2]

I would love to see fresh, young chargers in F1 taking on the dinosaurs but the drivers coming through from the spec-car series are usually nowhere near ready.

This is why Max Verstappen is so exciting and Charles Leclerc the same. Maybe Ocon, maybe.

In F1 terms there is only one driver in GP2 with obvious real potential and that is Giovinazzi - and F1 teams know that I can assure you. (Yes, maybe others too but he is the stand out.)

And no, I am not working with any of those drivers.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I would love to see fresh, young chargers in F1 taking on the dinosaurs but the drivers coming through from the spec-car series are usually nowhere near ready.

This is why Max Verstappen is so exciting and Charles Leclerc the same. Maybe Ocon, maybe.

In F1 terms there is only one driver in GP2 with obvious real potential and that is Giovinazzi - and F1 teams know that I can assure you. (Yes, maybe others too but he is the stand out.)

And no, I am not working with any of those drivers.

Despite that, he isn't a member of an F1 team's junior program is he?

[DDDrive]

Face facts guys, F1 is more old boys club than sport these days. The ladder you talk about simply doesn't exist, with drives going to those with the best connections or deepest pockets - preferably both. With falling audiences, ever more complex cars and dwindling sponsor income, funding car advantage is now key. Talent is a low priority.

That's why the grid is full of tycoon offspring and familiar names like Palmer, Rosberg, Sainz and Verstappen.

Canada's Lance Stroll (Tommy Hilfiger), Monaco's Charles Leclerc (French supermarkets) and Russia's Nikita Mazepin (oligarch's son) will be along soon to take on young Alesi, Newey, Palmer (another one!) and Schumacher.

Nothing new I suppose - we've already had one-hit-wonders from 2nd generation Hill and Villeneuve - but I can't help thinking audiences and sponsors would return if F1 looked more like a meritocracy.

[peebee2]

You forgot Celis.

Giovinazzi is funded by Ricardo Galeal.

[Paradise City]

They are too doddery and there's too many vested commercial interests to fix the ladder in any meaningful way. Even with F2 supposedly on the horizon, I don't see it.

But they can do some simple stuff. Like make it obligatory for third drivers to run on Friday. They stopped doing that for some mysterious reason. A very simple way of getting the next generation up to speed before they make their debut.

[BSchneiderFan]

^This. The FIA could simply say that in one of the FP sessions, a non-race driver had to run, and instantly (without costing anything), the opportunities for young drivers to prove themselves open up hugely. And no-one gains an advantage because it's the same for everyone.

[peebee2]

The teams really don't want them as the young drivers don't have the experience necessary to give serious feedback. The system needs to be fixed lower down to educate the drivers better

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

They are too doddery and there's too many vested commercial interests to fix the ladder in any meaningful way. Even with F2 supposedly on the horizon, I don't see it.

But they can do some simple stuff. Like make it obligatory for third drivers to run on Friday. They stopped doing that for some mysterious reason. A very simple way of getting the next generation up to speed before they make their debut.

Do it like MotoGP. Have F3, F2 and F1 world championship races on sunday on the same TV package. Those titles would have more prestige and perhaps real sponsors would be interested if the racing concerned more people than the next of kin.

[cds_uk]

Nice job by Jolyon in qualy.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I would love to see fresh, young chargers in F1 taking on the dinosaurs but the drivers coming through from the spec-car series are usually nowhere near ready.

This is why Max Verstappen is so exciting and Charles Leclerc the same. Maybe Ocon, maybe.

In F1 terms there is only one driver in GP2 with obvious real potential and that is Giovinazzi - and F1 teams know that I can assure you. (Yes, maybe others too but he is the stand out.)

And no, I am not working with any of those drivers.

Based on what he is doing with the team he is with, the standout driver is quite obviously Rowland!!!!

He suckered Giovinazzi into a mistake superbly today. And made Gasly look very amateur as well. Shame they can't engineer the car to make the tyres last a bit longer. (Sorry for going OT everyone)

[peebee2]

Sorry didn't include him as he is tied to Renault, but you are right - Oli also has real potential.

[chunterer]

Back to Palmer, weekend went great for him until he harpooned Massa at turn 2 and was on the back foot thereafter.

Didn't help that Kevin had a storming opening stint as well!

[chillibowl]

not a good day for either Palmer or Mags. sounds like Mags is ok though which is good to hear.

shame for Palmer as he had qualified well and was doing was ahead of Mags prior to the crash/red flag.

after that it was all backwards as he seemed to be having serious issues with his tires and a team directive to 'lift and coast'...which form his response was a pretty frustrating thing to have been told to do.

[BSchneiderFan]

Very scary crash for Magnussen. At least he went into the barrier backwards. Head-on would have been scarier still. But... I have to say Eau Rouge and corners like it are what makes the sport what it is. These things can happen. And KM is OK.