New LMP Category...

[Tim Northcutt]

Penske and Donohue DID torch their competition, didn't they?

I still would like to see the variety, and this would be a more competitive and viable option for a privateer to compete and race near the front without robbing Fort Knox....or waiting for his 675 to break or blow up...

To Lee:

I did misread the vette displacement when I looked it up yesterday...I stand corrected....

But a Vette or Viper engine in a prototype would be fast....and that 8.6 hemi sounds even better...but the bodywork to cover an engine that size behind the driver would make the car look like it was towing a house like those "wide loads" on the highway...

The sound would be awesome....

[veeten]

Lee, I never said that I felt that Traction Control was necessesary for any open wheel series, so never assume my thinking.

I'd rather have a chassis/powertrain combo that gives consistent return on the race, rather than be caught up in asthetics and end up with a car that you have to spend an exorbitant amount of time and energy trying to make work.

And also, I was the person that suggested the bringing up of the 5.7L Hemi engine for use in sportscars, as THIS is the engine that MOPAR can make into a race winner.

[Tim Northcutt]

To Veteen:

regardless of the class, any time that new rules, configurations or ideas are tried, development pains and costs will occur...

The new 2004 rules may even bring a whole set of new, unanticipated issues that will be time consuming and maybe even costly to sort out...

Concerning the 5.7 hemi...I'd love to see it in sportscars, too...

The big question in my mind is:

Would Daimler-Chrysler make the long-term commitment to it to last through the difficult development years???

Or would any American auto maker do it in on the prototype side of the equation?

One could argue that Chevy suffered through some lean years with the Vette before they became dominant, but developing a GTS that translates into sales to the public, as opposed to developing power for a prototype, is a totally different ballgame....showing a Vette crossing the line at Le Mans in 1st in a commercial, followed by images of a look-alike you can drive home for $45,000-$50,000 means something to their bottom line immediately...

Cadillac dumped a program that was finally seeing some results, and wasn't Chrysler at Le Mans as the power for a prototype a few years ago? (I can't remember the team..sorry...but they ran fairly strong)

American auto makers seem totally marketing driven as opposed to using the race track to develop technology that they can ultimately apply to their commercial vehicles...

It's stupid and short-sighted, but it seems to be the reality...

Maybe someone at Chrysler will figure this out and provide this as an engine option for sportcar racing...for privateers to buy and work with them to develop and test...

I'd love to see it....

But I'd still like to see the variety of another class, like an LMP 1000, and I feel that if they could run them in Can-Am in the late '60s and early '70s, they ought to be able to figure it out 30 years later with advances such as carbon fiber drive shafts, improved metalurgy, better designs for c-vjoints and trans-axles, etc....

[veeten]

Tim, exactly where were you for the last 7 years?

What you just described was the Viper GTS-R program that was initiated between Chrysler and Oreca, from '96 to '01. In 2000, they provided the MOPAR 6L V8 engine for both the Reynard 2KQ chassis and Dallara LMP in '01.

I'm sorry, Tim. Let it go...

[Tim Northcutt]

The Viper GT-1 program is carbon copy of the point I made about the Vette...they sell them on the street...it is all marketing driven...

"You too can drive this look-alike of a winner" blah, blah, blah,...it's the name of the game in Detroit....if it'll help me sell it, do it...

Same reason why they've really pushed their $$$ to "Aw-Sum Bee-ull" on NASCAR every Sunday and the Trucks...

As for 2000 and 2001, two years to develop power for an LMP is even worse than Cadillac's alleged effort...at least Cadillac did build two chassis to try to make a package...wasted money, since last year's cars are sitting God only knows where when one or both could be racing, and somebody could be working on it to make it even better...

In your response you added more evidence to the exact point i was making...

Thanks, Veteen!

[Tim Northcutt]

One last Note to Veteen, then I will let this go...

Up until a couple of years ago, the main story line in GTS was "Vettes vs. Vipers"....and a couple of years ago, Dodge returned to NASCAR...now the Vipers are barely on th radar screen when discussions turn to GTS...it is "Vettes vs. Ferraris"...that is no coincidence.....

and it further proves the American automaker mentality of "marketing driven" interests, when the focus should be developing new ideas on the race track to build a better product that you sell in the showroom...

[veeten]

But it's those self-same "market driven" interests that fund the majority of automaker racing programs. It would be nice if "racing, for the sake of racing" were the mantra of auto manufacturers, unfortunately they have a lot more to be responsible to than just the racing public. Stockholders, executive staff, and others both outside and in want to know just what is being done with the investment of capitol by said company. If it is being thrown "willy-nilly" about, they have this nasty ability, and right, to yank their money out and go elsewhere, preferably to a company with a more focused agenda and plausible return.

Yes that is no coincidence, until you look overseas where the Viper has had an insurmountable record in GT classes all over the place. Remember that the Viper program was started in europe first, with Oreca racing as the main source of data collection and overall car refinement. It was later that other teams, like Chamberlain, Carsport, and others grew from. It was only later, after several wins in GT and LeMans that the car and the Oreca team entered ALMS, as well as ELMS, that we saw the returns for the Viper on these shores. It also forced GM's hand as far as the Corvette GTS program was concerned. They had to make a better car, since it was the Viper that was getting all the major racing press. This translates well into "on the street" thinking, where bench racing is a major relations motivator. This leads to people dreaming about the racer, while checking out the rest of the production cars.

As Oreca, Pratt & Miller, Prodrive, Saleen Speedlab and others prove, you don't necessesarily have to have the factory build the racer to get a return on the investment.

If you're looking for something akin to Audi, and the R8 program, don't hold your breath...

[Tim Northcutt]

Points well-made and well-taken, Veteen...I appreciate it...

As part of the racing area of the makers' interests, at least consider this...

Wouldn't the Dodge NASCAR team (which helps them sell Intrepids and trucks to some extent) potentially benefit from some of the data gotten from a continued Chrysler 6.0L program for prototypes in the area of reliability, (even though one is carbureted and the other fuel-injected) in the same way that Yates will probably get some data from R&S that could help their NASCAR operation???

But since that probably won't happen, at least one could hope that they would develop the 5.7 Hemi through endurance racing to hepl their commercial products for the street -- it WOULD be a solid engine for this type of racing, and Chrysler would learn from it in the same way that Don Panoz claims his racing program provides data to help the Panoz Car Company build a better street roadster (also why he has always raced the front-engined prototype)...

[veeten]

That's why I've been saying a lot about the new Hemi, it's the perfect engine to develop in such circumstances.

Remember, this in some ways would be the progeny of the early Hemis of the 50's, when Briggs Cunningham put the 331 c.i. Chrysler FirePower V8s into the C-4R & C-5R sportscars and pratically dominated the US scene, not to mention his exploits at LeMans. Although that engine was a 90-degree, cast iron unit with 4 stromberg carbs on a Offy manifold, it was quite strong, durable, and powerful a powerplant. With all the things that can be done, from alloy block/heads to strong lightweight innards, it would just be a matter of time before it just runs away with a lot of wins.

[ZXKawboy]

On a totally different note....I was watching a rerun of Millen's run at Pike's Peak from a few years ago. He was in a Toyota Tundra (I think?) pickup (ostensibly speaking). In all actuality, it was a purpose built chassis with bodywork made to *look* like a truck.

What struck me was this. That "truck" looked a *hell* of a lot like a GTP car of only a few years prior to it. I had the thought that a so-called "truck" class built along those lines might be kinda neat.

Does anyone else recall that vehicle?

[Garp]

Anybody remember the BitterGT1. A prototype-like car with the Viper V-10. Problem was the amount of torque on the gemini gearbox. They wasted a gearbox every few laps. If you'r going to use such an engine in a LMP which gearbox should you use? (ain't the weight(250kg) of the engine a problem)

[Tim Northcutt]

The weight of the engine would account for the higher weight class for the LMP, and yes...thee would be evelopment issues with the gearbox and/or power train,as Veteen noted earlier in this thread, but they figured it out in Can-Am Challenge 35 years ago...technology and materials are better now, and this could be sorted out...

Any new configuration would face soem problems to deal with...