Overtaking - it can happen - Page 2

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 08:39 (Ref:669133)

The more the season goes on, the more impressed I am by the new qualifying rules. By making the qualifying as hard as possible they have given us the bst chance that the grid will be mixed up. I'm all in favour of the fuel rule too - I agree that it detracts a little from the spectacle of qualifying, but it makes the qualifying challenge more difficult... you have to look after the tyres; drive a heavier car; be brave yet cautious - and, most importantly, it prevents the big teams going to extreme lengths to build qualifying cars.

If I were ased I'd have to vote for keeping the rules as stable as possible - I think the teams at the top will hit a virtual plateau in development and the mid field teams will catch up. Then we will have more even races and more overtaking.

By the way, obviously I can see that the second safety car period was a major factor, nevertheless overtaking did take place.

spearce · 23 Jul 2003, 11:59 (Ref:669324)

The overtaking wasn't just down to the circuit, because the F3000 race was **** - it should be called 'formula stalemate'. The GP was superb in comparison - quite a few moves into club which is normally not on, as its so easily defended.

paulzinho · 23 Jul 2003, 13:20 (Ref:669389)

For the moves into club the slipstreaming down the Hangar Straight was vital, it allowed the cars to go side by side into Stowe, compromising exit speed and allowing moves into Club.

Problem is there aren't enough places which allow decent slip streaming.

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 14:42 (Ref:669456)

The slipstreaming was helped by the headwind, was it not? Which is effectively the same as more drag & more downforce = bigger hole in the air. There's no easy answer to this, because if you take off wing and reduce aerodyanmic grip you also reduce the hole in the air and reduce slipstreaming. As the car designs have advanced and exploited every shred of air for downforce (in other words become more & more efficient) they have become more sensitive to air quality - but there again if you disallow some of the means by which they create downforce you also take away some of the means by which the car behind is able to overtake. Catch 22.

This problem was not as bad in previous eras because the cars were relatively inefficient - they had big wings and made a big hole, but they didn't rely nearly as much on dozens of little details to smooth the air for the nth degree of efficency. In other words its more to do with how good the cars are, rather then the total level of aero downforce. Indeed, if one takes a simplistic approach and mandates for smaller wings it places an even greater premium on the bodywork downforce, which is the sensitive bit! what might work is more legislation on the floor and diffusor - make those areas worse and let the downforce come from wings alone.

paulzinho · 23 Jul 2003, 15:09 (Ref:669474)

Hmmm, the old wingless cars didn't have slipstreaming problems, but that is due to the fact there wasn't the poor air coming off the wings as you mentioned. I'd like to see the end of all these little winglets and bargeboards that sprout up everywhere. What difference they make and the extent of that I have to admit I do not know, but they must have some effect because the teams seem to love them.

Perhaps wider cars are a better solution, yes wider cars and big slicks.... aesthetically pleasing too!

Speed · 23 Jul 2003, 15:37 (Ref:669497)

Overtaking - it can happen...

Of course it can, ask Montoya !

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 16:04 (Ref:669531)

The old wingless cars were also bodywork-less, comparitavely speaking. Exposed engines, springs, oil tanks... whatever. They are a good example of cars which were much less efficient. The poor air coming off the wings is a wrong conception - if there were no poor air of some sort there wouldn't be a slipstream at all. The poor air in an old-fashioned car came from everywhere.

If you took the wings off a modern F1 car they would be left with about 40 to 50% downforce, ALL of it dependent on super clean air flow. And. They wouldn't make much of a slipstream. So that would be very much worse.

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 16:08 (Ref:669537)

Why wider cars? I don't think it is a very "F1" solution to simply wish that cars looked a bit more like they did in a bygone era. Narrow track does at least give a little more room for wheel-to-wheel within a corner. Generally speaking I think it is better to have things always moving forward, getting more extreme and more modern.

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 16:10 (Ref:669539)

oops

paulzinho · 23 Jul 2003, 16:12 (Ref:669541)

Fair enough, I guess we just have different feelings (I'm sure we've done this before at some point!)

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2003, 16:37 (Ref:669573)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
The slipstreaming was helped by the headwind, was it not? Which is effectively the same as more drag & more downforce = bigger hole in the air.

Of course the headwind wasn't head on in the corners before the Hanger straight so the negative effect of the head wind didn't occur.

You have to think seperately about drag and downforce.

It is drag that is behind slipstreaming. A car has drag, reduce that by getting in the hole in the air behind the car in front and you get a tow, which you can use to your advantage.

It is downforce that enables you to corner quickly. However following a car reduces the amount of downforce. You can't get close to the car in front. It is a disadvantage to the follower.

Now there is a relationship between drag and downforce, but it isn't linear at all. It is dependent on do many things. For instance a brick has lots of drag, but no downforce. An aerofoil has little drag for the huge amounts of downforce it creates.

So it is possible to remove downforce from a car and not reduce the slipstreaming effect. Hence more advantage and less disadvantage. i.e. make hem more like bricks

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 16:45 (Ref:669580)

Yea - I know. That's more or less what I said. Make the car worse. Less efficient. Like you say (in turn exactly what I said!) you have to leave the drag because otherwise there wouldn't be a slipstream.

I realise that the relationship isn't linear - in fact this is the reason for the contrast between modern and old cars (as I also said). As they have gone closer to the edges of what is possible they have exploited every shred of potential, and in the process made very sensitive cars.

Even with these problems though, and to get back to the original-original point, there was overtaking and close formation racing on medium speed corners.

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 16:48 (Ref:669582)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
It is drag that is behind slipstreaming. A car has drag, reduce that by getting in the hole in the air behind the car in front and you get a tow, which you can use to your advantage.

It is downforce that enables you to corner quickly. However following a car reduces the amount of downforce. You can't get close to the car in front. It is a disadvantage to the follower.

Hey Adam - thanks for the egg-sucking lesson.

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2003, 16:50 (Ref:669588)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
Yea - I know. That's more or less what I said. Make the car worse. Less efficient. Like you say (in turn exactly what I said!) you have to leave the drag because otherwise there wouldn't be a slipstream.

Sorry Glen, I didn't mean it to sound like I was going against what you said. I quote you because I wanted to pick up what you said and run with it.

Quote:

there was overtaking and close formation racing on medium speed corners.

Oh yes! It seems it can happen, hardly every weekend! We need some more mixed up situations (although I hope they happen 'naturally' - no names our of a hat please

) to see if it was that or if it was just one of those days!

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2003, 16:53 (Ref:669590)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
Hey Adam - thanks for the egg-sucking lesson.

Twasn't as explained above.

However some miss your point, it always worth saying the fundamentals now and again!

Shame I can't find a suck-egg icon

what about

(possibly

)

Glen · 23 Jul 2003, 16:58 (Ref:669599)

I wonder (& hope) if this will happen more as the pressure starts to build in the closing races - because these guys have got one lap on Saturday to show if they are man or boy!

Sorry Adam - didn't mean to be so defensive! I agree that the fundamentals are always worth re-stating. There are some big misconceptions about these fundamentals that are taken as gospel by a lot of people.

**Adam43** · 23 Jul 2003, 17:28 (Ref:669623)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
I wonder (& hope) if this will happen more as the pressure starts to build in the closing races - because these guys have got one lap on Saturday to show if they are man or boy!

Yes, the pressure is definitely on them. One or more may start from mid to low field. Hopefully they'll be able to overtake (that's when you go from behind to in front of another car

) and we'll see some action as they try to make it up.

Although some close running between the main protagonists would also me nice (less chance of overtaking though

)

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