[Team] Aston Martin Racing in 2023. One of the cars still has Alonso.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Some would say it's an underwhelming decision. Pérez is probably better than Vettel this year. Nevertheless, maybe Seb can now iron out the mistakes and still show a turn of pace.

Thoroughly underwhelming. If Vettel fails at RP, there is undoubtedly nowhere for him to hide. Someone mentioned Russell, I would have much preferred to see George in that seat (although I was perfectly happy to see the evergreen Perez continue...).

[Akrapovic]

I think it's funny to say "Webber occasionally hard the better of him". I think people forget how dominant Seb was. Webber never even managed to finish second in the championship. Even when Vettel won the title by over 100 points, Mark still wasn't runner up - in fact he wasn't even close. And the time when the Red Bull maybe wasn't quite as far ahead as the others (2012), Seb won the title and Mark was 6th. If Bottas finished 6th in the championship in a car Lewis was winning in, people here would be asking for his head. But now we look back and pretend Seb wasn't that good and it was all the car. Well, if it was all the car and Seb is kinda average, than Mark Webber must be a truly terrible driver.

Sebs last 2 years at Ferrari have been a complete disaster. But I don't really see a downside on this AMR gamble here. If Seb does well, then AMR get a WDC at the wheel, someone to tutor Lance, and all the input his years of experience running in some of the best cars gives.

If Seb does badly, he'll go in the huff and leave. AMR still got knowledge out of him for the car and for Lance.

If they stick with Perez then they get what they currently have. An average driver who has already peaked, who Lance is somehow closing the gap on.

I don't mind Perez, but this seems like a gamble worth taking to be honest. Because worst case scenario is Seb does badly, leaves, and then you get someone else in. You can't put drivers like Russell in that car yet because he doesn't have the experience to lead the team, which is what Lance doesn't have. But by the time Seb leaves (either on good or bad terms) then drivers like Russell are ready. And it's the perfect seat for them.

[S griffin]

When I saw last night that Checo that it was a shame, he’s done a lot for the team and is a safe pair of hands. Of course it was unlikely they would move Stroll out

OTOH, Checo hasn’t exactly blown Lance away this season. Even allowing for his two races off, Perez has been a bit disappointing in terms of results. Stroll really seems to have raised his game now he has a car capable of regular points finishes and he’s now beaten Perez several times. It could be argued Hulk did a better job than Perez would have done.

Still it’s a massive shame for Perez and it is quite a gamble to bring in a driver who has been well out of form this season, even if he is a four time champion. Aston maybe feel they can get the best out of Vettel, which maybe Ferrari didn’t always do and maybe Vettel can be back to his best now he’s got a car capable of results again. But it’s a big risk to replace Perez who is very reliable, against Vettel, who’s mistakes have increased over recent years and at 33, is possibly over the hill

I just hope Perez finds a seat somewhere, even if I explained in the Indycar thread it would be good to see him give that a go

[codename_47]

Based on their form this year, I can't see AM ALLOWING Vettel to finish ahead of their golden boy

At the very least he's going to have to race his way out of some less favourable strategies while Lance saunters to results on the optimum one.
And you thought he was mad enough at his strategist THIS year?

Vettel's an odd one. He is probably the world champion that has made the greatest amount of mistakes since Mansell, but his fanbase will not and cannot understand that these mistakes are his fault
Even when he is spinning off track and pushing other cars off as he rejoined, it' was somehow still Ferrari's fault for pressuring poor Seb.
He won't get such treatment at Racing Point though

But you can see why he doesn't want to retire. If he went now, his reputation would be more Adrian Newey than Seb Vettel
I guess he wants 2 years of at least showing that he still has what it takes even if he isn't winning races immediately, like he probably hopes
This won't be a "Lewis to Mercedes" move but it might be nice to see him scrapping with Alonso for the final spot on the podium.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by S griffin

OTOH, Checo hasn’t exactly blown Lance away this season. Even allowing for his two races off, Perez has been a bit disappointing in terms of results. Stroll really seems to have raised his game now he has a car capable of regular points finishes and he’s now beaten Perez several times. It could be argued Hulk did a better job than Perez would have done.

There have been a lot of questionable strategy calls on Sergio's side of the pit wall including highly suspicious late race stops for "safety" when Sergio was clearly ahead of lance.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

When I saw last night that Checo that it was a shame, he’s done a lot for the team and is a safe pair of hands. Of course it was unlikely they would move Stroll out

OTOH, Checo hasn’t exactly blown Lance away this season. Even allowing for his two races off, Perez has been a bit disappointing in terms of results. Stroll really seems to have raised his game now he has a car capable of regular points finishes and he’s now beaten Perez several times. It could be argued Hulk did a better job than Perez would have done.

Still it’s a massive shame for Perez and it is quite a gamble to bring in a driver who has been well out of form this season, even if he is a four time champion. Aston maybe feel they can get the best out of Vettel, which maybe Ferrari didn’t always do and maybe Vettel can be back to his best now he’s got a car capable of results again. But it’s a big risk to replace Perez who is very reliable, against Vettel, who’s mistakes have increased over recent years and at 33, is possibly over the hill

I just hope Perez finds a seat somewhere, even if I explained in the Indycar thread it would be good to see him give that a go

I suspect his dirty swerving and weaving wouldn’t go down well in USA...

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think it's funny to say "Webber occasionally hard the better of him". I think people forget how dominant Seb was. Webber never even managed to finish second in the championship. Even when Vettel won the title by over 100 points, Mark still wasn't runner up - in fact he wasn't even close. And the time when the Red Bull maybe wasn't quite as far ahead as the others (2012), Seb won the title and Mark was 6th. If Bottas finished 6th in the championship in a car Lewis was winning in, people here would be asking for his head. But now we look back and pretend Seb wasn't that good and it was all the car. Well, if it was all the car and Seb is kinda average, than Mark Webber must be a truly terrible driver.

Don't forget Red Bull 2nd car syndrome, which people might think is a new phenomena with Gasly and now Albon, but has been their mantra since day 1

Vettel was the favoured son and Webber just there to make up the numbers as far as Red Bull were concerned, hence "not bad for a number 2 driver" and "Multi 21" outbursts which were caused by him overcoming either the team's favouring policy or Seb's downright ruthless selfishness, backed up by the team
While I actually don't think Webber was quite on the level of Seb, the fact he managed to haul himself into the title fight in 2010 is pretty impressive, especially after the Silverstone and Turkey incidents.
Indeed, fighting for a title, having your team mate hit you in an accident that is his fault, then have the team blame YOU for it must've been quite demoralising for Mark
Perhaps telling that it was after 2010 that his results started to slide, as he knew maybe on some subconcious level that even if he gave it 100%, it woudn't be enough to counter the dearth in talent+team favouring Seb.

And whenever Vettel doesn't feel the team 100% behind him, he ends up making huge mistakes and throwing hissy fits on the radio to the point I think hiring him is a bit of a posioned chalice right now
Which Seb are you going to get? The one that is calm and measured when things go his way, and if he can get out front and lead, won't be caught.
Or the one where if one minor thing goes against him, he can't handle it and snowballs it into an angry attitude, mistake under pressure or clumsy incident trying to race wheel to wheel (never his strenght)

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

I suspect his dirty swerving and weaving wouldn’t go down well in USA...

Since Singapore 2018, he’s kept his nose relatively clean

[bella]

Originally Posted by E.B

Sadly for me the support I had for Racing Point has, with this news, evaporated. So much for the loyalty they promised Checo in return for his actions which in truth allowed Racing Point to even exist.

he's had his loyalty - he was given a contract over ocon. the only way he'd have justified greater loyalty is by getting those mexican millions to buy into the team...

look, the guy is quick and the strong rapport and respect he's built up with the guys around him show that he's a decent bloke in motorsport terms. but this idea that loyalty extends beyond commercial demands or potential competitiveness is flawed. they're rebranding, they need to take a step up and tbh, vettel is a perfect, visible way of doing so. he'll be great publicity for the aston martin brand.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by codename_47

Don't forget Red Bull 2nd car syndrome, which people might think is a new phenomena with Gasly and now Albon, but has been their mantra since day 1

Vettel was the favoured son and Webber just there to make up the numbers as far as Red Bull were concerned, hence "not bad for a number 2 driver" and "Multi 21" outbursts which were caused by him overcoming either the team's favouring policy or Seb's downright ruthless selfishness, backed up by the team
While I actually don't think Webber was quite on the level of Seb, the fact he managed to haul himself into the title fight in 2010 is pretty impressive, especially after the Silverstone and Turkey incidents.
Indeed, fighting for a title, having your team mate hit you in an accident that is his fault, then have the team blame YOU for it must've been quite demoralising for Mark
Perhaps telling that it was after 2010 that his results started to slide, as he knew maybe on some subconcious level that even if he gave it 100%, it woudn't be enough to counter the dearth in talent+team favouring Seb.

I can't agree with that at all. The gap between Webber and Seb was absolutely massive. Only once did during Vettels title years did Mark get even remotely close. Second car syndrome and moving front wings around does not make up over a 100 point difference between the drivers. Or, even worse, the fact Mark NEVER managed to finish as runner up. Even when the car was completely dominant, he still wouldn't have won the titles. The year the Ferrari was good enough to fight the Red Bull, Webber finished alongside Massa in the championship in 6th and 7th - whilst their team mates won titles. Mark had less podiums than his team mate had wins.

Webber was also ruthlessly selfish. Remember that the year before Multi-21 he happily ignored team orders at Silverstone, which were to hold station. The only difference between between that at Sepang was Seb got the job done, and Mark failed. Both were equally selfish, just one of them was far more talented. So lets not sit here and pretend that was a Seb attribute - that's a racing driver attribute.

You'll get no argument from anyone about Sebs last few years. But the Red Bull years were not a case of "Well it was just the team favouring Vettel". Even when that car utterly dominated, Webber was simply not good enough. Take Vettel out of that car, and it wouldn't have won any titles.

--

So here's the deal with AMR and Perez and Vettel. You can pick Vettel and you might get a World Champion. You might get a flop. Or you can pick Perez and you will get a driver who is only a little better than Stroll now, and that's it.

If you pick the safe option every time then you're not going to get anywhere. Perez is not going to going to turn that team into a championship contending one. Vettel might. He might fail (and probably will), but he might just do it. So which sounds better?

I personally think Vettel will be a flop. However I think it's the perfect risk at a good time for AMR. Because the downside is Vettel gets sacked and replaced a year later. The pay off is that he could do great things in the car.

[S griffin]

Of course it probably helps the Aston Martin marketing by having an ex champ driving for them. So that must have been a factor. But if he continues lacklustre performances at AM, the publicity won’t be so good

[Akrapovic]

The publicity will be about how bad Seb is, not the team. This is the perfect opportunity too, as nobody expects the team to do well in year 1, or even year 2. It's all about building and transitions.

If Vettel fails, it won't be AMR that's held accountable. Just like how Ferrari aren't being held accountable for his performances. (Although they have enough problems, regardless of the driver)

[Born Racer]

Normally when ex-champions go to lower teams, it's considered they don't have much to prove. This is interesting because Sebastian has loads to prove. Remember when David Coulthard used to criticise the naysayers about Vettel's ability to overtake any time he made a move stick? He says how clumsy he is now. Also worrying is that for a four-time champion, many massively doubt that he is not much more than a good Formula 1 driver. He has a good opportunity here, but unfortunately for him, he may need to thrash Stroll to get credit, as rightly or wrongly, Lance isn't considered much of a yardstick by some.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Normally when ex-champions go to lower teams, it's considered they don't have much to prove. This is interesting because Sebastian has loads to prove. Remember when David Coulthard used to criticise the naysayers about Vettel's ability to overtake any time he made a move stick? He says how clumsy he is now. Also worrying is that for a four-time champion, many massively doubt that he is not much more than a good Formula 1 driver. He has a good opportunity here, but unfortunately for him, he may need to thrash Stroll to get credit, as rightly or wrongly, Lance isn't considered much of a yardstick by some.

That's pretty much it all in one there BR!

As is also clear is that this was Vettels only real option ti stay in F1. So he must still back himself fairly highly to do a good job even if he's looked at best inconsistent and at worse a liability in the last couple of years.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by codename_47

Don't forget Red Bull 2nd car syndrome, which people might think is a new phenomena with Gasly and now Albon, but has been their mantra since day 1

Vettel was the favoured son and Webber just there to make up the numbers as far as Red Bull were concerned, hence "not bad for a number 2 driver" and "Multi 21" outbursts which were caused by him overcoming either the team's favouring policy or Seb's downright ruthless selfishness, backed up by the team
While I actually don't think Webber was quite on the level of Seb, the fact he managed to haul himself into the title fight in 2010 is pretty impressive, especially after the Silverstone and Turkey incidents.
Indeed, fighting for a title, having your team mate hit you in an accident that is his fault, then have the team blame YOU for it must've been quite demoralising for Mark
Perhaps telling that it was after 2010 that his results started to slide, as he knew maybe on some subconcious level that even if he gave it 100%, it woudn't be enough to counter the dearth in talent+team favouring Seb.

And whenever Vettel doesn't feel the team 100% behind him, he ends up making huge mistakes and throwing hissy fits on the radio to the point I think hiring him is a bit of a posioned chalice right now
Which Seb are you going to get? The one that is calm and measured when things go his way, and if he can get out front and lead, won't be caught.
Or the one where if one minor thing goes against him, he can't handle it and snowballs it into an angry attitude, mistake under pressure or clumsy incident trying to race wheel to wheel (never his strenght)

You could use a lot of this post and make it about mercedes and hamilton. Remember when things went poorly for him when Rosberg won the title and he pouted and disregarded team radio, compromising both cars race? He doesn't make the mistakes vettel makes, though.

[BertMk2]

Anybody else think that RP/Aston Martin had a better driver lineup yesterday than they're going to have next season?

Also given they had concerns over Strolls health - why make the call so late? It must have been obvious first thing on Saturday that Stroll wasn't going to make it. If they'd made the call earlier then Hulkenburg could have made it out for FP3 (or at least some of it), gone into qualifying with a setup on the car that he'd evolved to his liking, qualified better and potentially therefore finished even higher up. Pretty poor all round from RP.

[peebee2]

The team is there for Stroll. Little else.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Anybody else think that RP/Aston Martin had a better driver lineup yesterday than they're going to have next season?

On current form, 100%. Vettel is a mess and Stroll is average.

But on potential form? That's where that driver line up has come from. Stroll has been slowly edging closer to Perez, when realistically he has no right to be. That gap should be larger than it is. So Stroll is showing potential. Vettel has won championships and if the stories of the Ferrari being very rear end happy and designed for Leclerc are true then it's not completely inconceivable that the old Vettel could return...but it's a long shot.

Hulk Perez should be the new Haas lineup for sure though. There is no reason to keep Grosjean the Destroyer and KMag the Anonymous over Hulk and Perez.

[cds_uk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Stroll has been slowly edging closer to Perez, when realistically he has no right to be. That gap should be larger than it is. So Stroll is showing potential.

Not entirely sure the gap should be larger than it is, Lance has driven in one race more and had a couple of races with the fancy new parts, also the Monza podium was very much fortuitous, arguably he should have done better than third.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Stroll has been slowly edging closer to Perez, when realistically he has no right to be.

Yes, but you’re talking as if the cars are the same.

And the strategy. Remember Hulk’s late stop at Silverstone, just to move him back.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Hulk Perez should be the new Haas lineup for sure though. There is no reason to keep Grosjean the Destroyer and KMag the Anonymous over Hulk and Perez.

While both Hulk and Perez are good enough to warrant seats in F1, with Haas as far back as they are currently, I'd love to see them roll the dice on someone like Illot.

[Akrapovic]

If we're going down the route of "RP made themselves lose points, which cost money, just to get Stroll ahead" then I think we're being very silly tbh.

Never attribute to malice that can be explained by incompetence. Not like RP have been known for making great strategy calls.

Also, these parts do make a difference, sure. But that much. Stroll has gone from being absolutely no where in a Williams and looking so out of his depth that he shouldn't even be in F1. Now he's certainly worthy of being in F1 and closing on his team mate.

Perez has...gone from being Perez to being Perez? He's good, not great. He appears to have peaked. He's a safe bet for sure, but that's all he is.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If we're going down the route of "RP made themselves lose points, which cost money, just to get Stroll ahead" then I think we're being very silly tbh.

Never attribute to malice that can be explained by incompetence. Not like RP have been known for making great strategy calls.

Also, these parts do make a difference, sure. But that much. Stroll has gone from being absolutely no where in a Williams and looking so out of his depth that he shouldn't even be in F1. Now he's certainly worthy of being in F1 and closing on his team mate.

Perez has...gone from being Perez to being Perez? He's good, not great. He appears to have peaked. He's a safe bet for sure, but that's all he is.

I think you're being a tad naive about strategy calls not being done to favour Lance!

It has happened to Perez and Hulkenberg already this year. It's Team Stroll so why shouldn't they?

At Silverstone Hulk had come in and beaten Lance on pace so that would've been pretty tough to stomach.

At Nurby Perez wss where he should've bee all season . Funny how he seemed to be stronger on a wekend Lance wasn't runnimg.

Who knows maybe Stroll could've have challenged Max for 2nd...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

While both Hulk and Perez are good enough to warrant seats in F1, with Haas as far back as they are currently, I'd love to see them roll the dice on someone like Illot.

I'd like to see one at Alfa with Mick and the other at Haas with Illot.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Stroll has gone from being absolutely no where in a Williams and looking so out of his depth that he shouldn't even be in F1.

Stroll was never close to being that bad.