Aston Martin revealing two road/race cars at Frankfurt

[pitviper]

It has been reported that Aston Martin will debut two new race-inspired cars along side the recently unveiled DBS at next month's Frankfurt Auto Show. Aston Martin took the wraps off its newest car, the DBS, earlier this month at the Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance.

Although specific details remain a mystery, the two cars are believed to be a road-going version of the DBR9 and a smaller V8 Vantage, possibly the V8 Vantage RS. The new cars are said to be based on the DB9RS and Vantage N24 and are aimed at the Porsche 911 GT3 and the recent Ferrari F430 Scuderia.

Aston Martin's CEO Ulrich Bez has also said that the Rapide four-door coupe is a top priority for the company. Aston Martin’s chief designer, Marek Reichman, said the four-door coupe will arrive in 2009 or 2010 and will cost around $400,000. Aston Martin is also working on an all-new super car, dubbed the DBX, but Bez refused to comment on it other than it will be released after the Rapide and will surpass the sedan's $400,000 price tag.

the above is from leftlanenews.com

Perhaps the above mentioned "DBX" will be the challenger to GM's "C7.P1" in the new LMP1 class? The time line seems to fit well... maybe i'm reading too much into this, but you just never know...

pit

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by pitviper

Perhaps the above mentioned "DBX" will be the challenger to GM's "C7.P1" in the new LMP1 class? The time line seems to fit well... maybe i'm reading too much into this, but you just never know...

pit

I so hope youre right!

[gwyllion]

David Richards mentioned in interview that Aston Martin could create a mid-engined supercar. So that could only serve as a basis for a GT1 car...

[pitviper]

not neccessarily... Let's look at it this way, within the next few years, we could see the GT rules in general making a change to where the "top" GT class could be something akin to the GT2 cars that we have currently. Cars like the MC12 and perhaps even the S7R would fit more into the look and feel of the newer P1 class (at least what the ACO is describing). Therefore, cars like the new Aston Martin DBX would fit more in look and feel into the new P1 class. Obviously, the racecar itself would be built to the full P1 regulations (whatever those end up being), but it would reflect all the styling of the road going supercar, which ties it closer to what is being sold to consumers, which is what the ACO is trying to go for. What is nice is that since it is a prototype by name and design, there are no homologation numbers to worry about, therefore less reason for manufacturers to build "specials" for the road so that they can race them... rather, they can build a small volume of a car the celebrates the race car itself, and the technology found within. That to me is keeping both the "spirit" and the "letter" of the rules in tact...

just my take though...

pit

[broadrun96]

Didn't he also let slip that AM would be going for the outright win in their future visits to LM? Could be the unveiling of 2 cars, derived from the current "spirit" of the coupe designs, with the road going sister cars? Now for Vette to release their C7 mockup and officially announce the road going super car

[pitviper]

Yes, which is why I feel like their next venture would involve going the P1 route. These intentions most likely won't be revealed at frankfurt however, as the new regulations aren't even supposed to be finalized and made public until November I believe, and the Frankfurt show is next month. The article seems pretty clear that the new cars being unveiled at next month's show will be "clubsport" versions of the DB9 and V8 Vantage. Like it says, much akin to how the Ferrari F430 Scuderia is to the standard F430...

I would imagaine that news of manufacturers moving into P1 with new coupes probably won't be made truly public until at the earliest Sebring or LM 2008...

pit

[cmk]

I think all this speculation about DBX and C7.P1s competing in the new ACO LMP1 vision is more than a little premature. I'm skeptical about the final ACO P1 concept for the future closely resembling the concept that was floated this year (or last), given their history of changing their minds. How often did we see different interpretations of the 2006 press conference in the time between it and the 2007 one?

[dxk1]

Until someone comes up with a formula that will make the petrol P1s competitive with the diesels, I think any talk of an Aston Martin or Corvette P1 car is premature. These companies are not going to spend millions of dollars to finish second. They will either need to develop an engine that meets the rules specifications that can compete with the torque of a diesel or they will need to find a diesel engine somewhere. The last time I looked, neither Aston Martin nor Corvette had such a diesel in the works!

DK

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Until someone comes up with a formula that will make the petrol P1s competitive with the diesels, I think any talk of an Aston Martin or Corvette P1 car is premature. These companies are not going to spend millions of dollars to finish second. They will either need to develop an engine that meets the rules specifications that can compete with the torque of a diesel or they will need to find a diesel engine somewhere. The last time I looked, neither Aston Martin nor Corvette had such a diesel in the works!

DK

I highly, HIGHLY doubt the oil burners will have the same advantage with the 2010 rules. So dont worry.

[pitviper]

Yes... I think the assumpion of these things is certainly premature... however discussion about the possibilities is never premature. It is a forum after all, and I simply thought that there have been a few timely news items lately that point the way toward an interesting idea for future developments, that's all...

pit

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by pitviper

Yes... I think the assumpion of these things is certainly premature... however discussion about the possibilities is never premature. It is a forum after all, and I simply thought that there have been a few timely news items lately that point the way toward an interesting idea for future developments, that's all...

pit

Yes there does seem to be several seperate factors in play with very similar (rumored) irons in the fire. How they will all coalesce, or not, into the future LMP-1/GTP-X/LMP-2 or FIA-ACO GT classes are subjects IMO that are very valid topics to be discussed at this point.

L.P .

[pitviper]

Much appreciated ;-)

pit

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Until someone comes up with a formula that will make the petrol P1s competitive with the diesels, I think any talk of an Aston Martin or Corvette P1 car is premature. These companies are not going to spend millions of dollars to finish second. They will either need to develop an engine that meets the rules specifications that can compete with the torque of a diesel or they will need to find a diesel engine somewhere. The last time I looked, neither Aston Martin nor Corvette had such a diesel in the works!

DK

Diesel equivalency could be changed in time for PLM, nevermind 2010, a little weight here, a smaller restrictor there, and it's done.

The P1 coupe regs will be announced before Chrsitmas, in fact it's likely one of the major talking points for Acura and the ACO in Detroit.

When Autsport had an article about P1 coupes all sorts of points were being floated, including allowing production based engines like the Aston V12 breaks over pure race engines like a Judd, allowing energy regeneration from brakes etc.

I wouldn't expect a simple re-jig of LMP1 with a few token styling cues, these cars could be quite radical and allow many new technologies, while still embracing traditional 'stock' engines/technologies.

[Purist]

In the most recent AutoWeek I received, they said the 2010 regs WILL be a major talking point at the meeting between the ACO and HPD in Detroit.

[dxk1]

I do understand that this is a forum where such discussion is welcome and encouraged, to the point of including wild speculation. Also, I enjoy reading other individuals thoughts on these subjects. I just caution that, until we know the rules, it is hard to conceive companies such as GM (Chevy) or Aston Martin putting money into something that they have no chance of winning unless there is a way to make petrol engines equal to diesels. After all, we all want to win when we compete. Especially when corporate dollars (pounds) are on the line.

DK

[dxk1]

Having read some of the latest posts, I must say I feel a little better about the chances of a petrol engine competing. If Corvette could use the same engine used in NASCAR or an unrestricted version of what is in the present GT1 Corvette, let the games begin!!! Either of those engines could generate well over 800 hp and be quite competitive. If that were the case, Corvette might just consider entering LMP1.

DK

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dxk1

I do understand that this is a forum where such discussion is welcome and encouraged, to the point of including wild speculation. Also, I enjoy reading other individuals thoughts on these subjects. I just caution that, until we know the rules, it is hard to conceive companies such as GM (Chevy) or Aston Martin putting money into something that they have no chance of winning unless there is a way to make petrol engines equal to diesels. After all, we all want to win when we compete. Especially when corporate dollars (pounds) are on the line.

DK

I think the point is these regs will be announced around November time and at least some manufactuers are being consulted, all engine types and many new technologies will be encouraged.

Acura are apparently working with Zytek on a hybrid and Aston, if they go to P1, would like to use the current V12 according to Howard-Chappell.

[ThePenguin]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Having read some of the latest posts, I must say I feel a little better about the chances of a petrol engine competing. If Corvette could use the same engine used in NASCAR or an unrestricted version of what is in the present GT1 Corvette, let the games begin!!! Either of those engines could generate well over 800 hp and be quite competitive. If that were the case, Corvette might just consider entering LMP1.

DK

A NASCAR engine in a Corvette LMP1?

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

A NASCAR engine in a Corvette LMP1?

That's actually a very reliable engine that can generate a large amount of horsepower and turn some pretty high revs. It moves a gigantic monster NASCAR hulk at around 200 mph, just imagine what it could do with a P1 size and weight car!

DK

[The359]

Roush also played a large part in developing the early engines for Panoz.

[ThePenguin]

Originally Posted by dxk1

That's actually a very reliable engine that can generate a large amount of horsepower and turn some pretty high revs. It moves a gigantic monster NASCAR hulk at around 200 mph, just imagine what it could do with a P1 size and weight car!

DK

Reliable? I would like to see a NASCAR engine last for 24 hours, when there are plenty of engines that won't last for a normal Cup race. They also change out the engine after each race to work on it. The weight of the NASCAR engine is significantly more than current prototype engines so you lose plenty of the low-weight advantage right there. You do know that they still use carbs, don't you?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Until someone comes up with a formula that will make the petrol P1s competitive with the diesels, I think any talk of an Aston Martin or Corvette P1 car is premature. These companies are not going to spend millions of dollars to finish second. They will either need to develop an engine that meets the rules specifications that can compete with the torque of a diesel or they will need to find a diesel engine somewhere. The last time I looked, neither Aston Martin nor Corvette had such a diesel in the works!

DK

Maybe the Gas/Petrol cars can be competitive with things "as-is" and here's my reason...

Hybrids!

Yes "Sparky" was about 10 years too early but the concept and idea was CORRECT!

To make Petrol cars competitive they can turn to electronic "supercharging" like what is found in the Lexus LS/GS H series cars which boast 20-30% hp increase if I am not mistaken.

Honda has already been talking to Zytek about its hybrid tech and DON'T BE SURPRISED if Acura shows up in LMP1 in 2009 with a Hybrid V8 powered car that every bit as fast as Audi's 3rd/4th generation Diesel R10. GM could also make this jump as well.

It would either that or turbocharging. The AER is a poor example because honesty the best team to run the car Lola/AER V8 combo has been Dyson and that was the first season.

Nobody on the level of Porsche or Acura have played with twin turbo V8's in an LMP car and to be honest, as Gale Banks has said "Anywhere turbocharging is allowed it has dominated"

I'll add to that: Being Gas or Diesel power makes NO DIFFERENCE.

Last time there was a dominate N/A car was the Jag V12... You can't say the "Lion's V10 powered car was vs watered down competition and the "Silver Arrows" still won the Championship, they had twin turbo V8's....

Let's not get hasty with putting an anchor on the R10, let's get a proper factory effort to give Audi a run for its money and then if they aren't competitive give them a boost, but NOT BEFORE.

[Purist]

Fine, I'll spell it out. Waiting another 2 and a half years, or whatever, for that to happen isn't good enough. A P1 petrol car is NOT going to have the pace under the current rules. If nothing else, even if the petrol car can equal Audi and Peugeot in horsepower, it will NOT be a match for the diesels in torque or in the power/torque curve/band. WHEN Audi sort out their handling issues (if they haven't already), a petrol P1 will NOT be any faster in the turns, like P2s are, because a P1 is too heavy to do that due to the rules for the class.

And I'll throw this out there. The commentators for SPEED's Mosport coverage said the Highcroft car at least is noticeably overweight, so I'm starting to wonder just how much difference the ACO rule changes will have.

[Purist]

To add to that last post, for those who saw Mosport, even stuck in gear, McNish was reeling the P2s back in coming up the Mario Andretti Straight. Since the diesels have the torque to do that, well, I'm scared as to what the R10 and 908 are really capable of. And Audi has NOT lost an outright victory this season because of a lack of outright pace (they could pull a gap when out front, even at Long Beach).

[dj4monie]

Yes but around the world you are comparing a company, an OEM with enough engineers to supply two or three F1 teams working on ONE project which is make a diesel engine competitive.

The Lolas and AER's of the world are only as good as the benefactors check is as large.

I don't think it would be a stretch to say Lola hasn't been the same since Ford stop writing those huge checks in the GT40 days...

Sure Lola has had developmental "partners" since then, but seriously on their own they are good, just not great. They read the rulebook ala Porsche and when they came out with their 675 car it was just as quick if not quicker than a GT1 or LMP1 cars through the corners. The smallish turbo engine just didn't last very long at the power levels to give them a close to equal power to weight ratio.

But in amature hands (that would be Dyson) they beat Audi a few times and could have won a few more but for late flat tires or technical problems.

But they got SEED money for the project from MG, they didn't do it COMPLETLY on their own.

It is not FAIR to put down Audi and "The Lion" because they saw something in the rulebook they could exploit and had the money to exploit it. Without them, you would have NOT seen a diesel prototype which I think is very important in this day and age of being "green" otherwise you would be one step closer to driving a golf cart to work everyday.

The Lolas, Radicals, AER's and Judd's of the world don't have the money for Direct Injection and Racing Common Rail Diesels. It would be SMART for say John Judd to link up with say International/Harvester who will be making the smaller displacement Duramax Diesel engines for GM and work with them on a REAL option for those without the big pockets of Audi and others.

Power to Weight is one way to come closer to the Diesel powered cars.

Maybe it would have been smarter for Henri to step down in class and develop an LMP2 that could run with the 908 at tighter tracks and just like Audi the 908's haven't been 100% reliable and anything could happen, they might have actually WON a race or two or three or four this year like Penske has.

Its not equal competition at the present time. If a private team had a car just as fast and durable as the Audi, then THINGS would be different. They don't so they aren't competitive, pretty simple if you ask me.

Maybe they aren't asking the right questions to get the answers they want from sponsors and technical partners.

Ego's get in the way because with money comes a king sized Ego to go with it.

Look at Highcroft, he wasn't an operation funded by some OEM someplace, but Duncan had his SHIET together, pitched his idea and got bank rolled by Honda.

What does that say about the level of equipment, shop and drivers at Dyson Racing????

Maybe they didn't think they would get picked by Acura and never called and as they say it never hurts to ask all they can say is NO.

But with no Weaver maybe they were a program in limbo; Who knew they would jump ship from Lola and AER???

Who is the leader on that team? Hasn't Guy Smith been lapping the quickest? Shouldn't he be in the lead car?? Its not like they are setting the house on fire even with the same car and tires as Penske, hmmm.

Martin Short got a deal with Nissan.

Problem was Nissan didn't take Le Mans and beating Audi seriously and of course they are looking to remain profitable and that doesn't include spending millions on a Sportscar effort almost nobody will see unless you put it on the front page of the USA Today like Audi does and has no links to anything currently in production.

The problem is the smaller teams need to get more organized, not so much more money.

Money always helps but like I said you pick the wrong people to work with and you go BACKWARDS.

Intersports is a perfect case in point. They have been the best LMP2 team of the last 3-4 years and even Ray Mallock would say that. For a small team from Ohio, they have made the right moves, until now.

They went with an semi unproven car builder instead of sticking with the one they had, even Lola/AER LMP1; year 2 would have proven faster and more reliable than the Creation/Judd combination.

No N/A powerplant without a helping hand from the rulebook will be competitive with a forced inducted engine or even hybird electric engine.

The Audi puts down 800ft of torque, the Porsche V8 in the Spyder is rated at 248lbs of torque, case closed.

Even if output is the same torque isn't and with traction control will LAUNCH you out of the corners, as witnessed at Mosport with great effect.

How come nobody is building a big torquey twin turbo V8? The AER isn't especially large in displacement...

But it has 4 valve per cylinder it could only be so big by the rules, but with 2 valve engines, as somebody said and I have an old Hot Rod story as well, with a stock block 90 degree Chevy V6, 700-800hp is EASY, very EASY. Yes you bring the center of gravy up but they can design around that - See Audi

I mean Penske found the loophole in the rulebook and asked Benz to make a pushrod V8 racing engine so he could run more boost and he won the Indy 500 with total EASE and I do mean TOTAL EASE, because in CART trim those were ill handling cars... Ask Al Jr...

How come AER isn't building an Alum version of a Ford V8 and slap a couple of turbos on it??? That's why I believe Europeans get caught up in technology just for the sake of it.

I mean it took 12 cylinders and twin turbos to beat McLarens in Cam Am with Reynolds Alum block Big Block Chevys... No Turbos, No Nitrous... All Motor

I think I have proved my point, I'll close my post here....