2021 VASC Silly Season

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by simonracer

I don't see why there couldn't be Commodores racing next year

Roland Dane says
"We don’t want to look like a secondhand car yard. If we’ve got cars that are not available anymore, with shapes that belong to a bygone era, you can only do that for a limited time. I don’t think that’s in anyone’s interest, and I don’t think there is any need to do it.”
https://autoaction.com.au/2018/03/13...dhand-car-yard

I think it would be feasible to permit only Mustang, and require everybody to run an off-the-shelf Ford Racing 5.2L alluminator crate engine (to cut costs). It would certainly solve parity issues.

The process to convert a ZB Commodore to a Mustang is straight-forward, and everybody would be on a level playing field with the cheap bog standard $34,000AUD crate engines, instead of the current highly customised $150,000AUD Windsors. https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A52XS

Gen 3 could be postponed until such a time that another manufacturer is interested.

[mayhem]

Honest question: What does a manufacturer bring these days outside of dollars? Aren't they little more than a large sponsor to the sport these days?

And if not, surely this is the wake up call Supercars needs to run the sport without any manufacturer involvement.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Roland Dane says
"We don’t want to look like a secondhand car yard. If we’ve got cars that are not available anymore, with shapes that belong to a bygone era, you can only do that for a limited time. I don’t think that’s in anyone’s interest, and I don’t think there is any need to do it.”
https://autoaction.com.au/2018/03/13...dhand-car-yard

I think it would be feasible to permit only Mustang, and require everybody to run an off-the-shelf Ford Racing 5.2L alluminator crate engine (to cut costs). It would certainly solve parity issues.

The process to convert a ZB Commodore to a Mustang is straight-forward, and everybody would be on a level playing field with the cheap bog standard $34,000AUD crate engines, instead of the current highly customised $150,000AUD Windsors. https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A52XS

Gen 3 could be postponed until such a time that another manufacturer is interested.

Great idea re the 5.2L crate engine.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Supercars administration should have anticipated this and signed many more than two manufacturers up to the series. Indeed at one point there were five manufacturers, but Supercars were unable to retain three of these.

There was only ever 4 manufacturers and one very expensive vanity project.

Originally Posted by simonracer

I don't see why there couldn't be Commodores racing next year unless they bring forward the regulation change, even if it's without Holden money.

No doubt they will keep them going next year and possibly after that. After all no manufacturers are required for Super2 cars....

Originally Posted by bluesport

Great idea re the 5.2L crate engine.

Except that there is a LOT more options and parts for the LS motors, and FAR more series use such over any Ford crate motor.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Except that there is a LOT more options and parts for the LS motors, and FAR more series use such over any Ford crate motor.

Better to have a quad cam more modern design.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Better to have a quad cam more modern design.

4 valve engines have been around since 1912 so not particularly modern in reality, just different engineering approaches.

Can't see much in the way of fan difference dependant on engine design so think one way or the other would be a low priority for any series running along the lines suggested.

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by simonracer

I don't see why there couldn't be Commodores racing next year unless they bring forward the regulation change, even if it's without Holden money.

Probably safe to say there will be 12 or more ZB's on the grid next year.

Of the current 16 Commodores. This announcement only affects 2 of them. The other 14 receive zero GM dollars.

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[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Honest question: What does a manufacturer bring these days outside of dollars? Aren't they little more than a large sponsor to the sport these days?

And if not, surely this is the wake up call Supercars needs to run the sport without any manufacturer involvement.

Go one step further and dump the whole shebang as it is now and change it to GT3 cars ala Bathurst 12 hour. They keep blowing their own trumpet about how "world class" V8 Supercars is, but lets be honest it's not because no one else runs them so you have no competitors from other countries to compare against. I think it would be much better viewing, and mix up the order as different cars suit different tracks. Just have some rule that there can only be a maximum number of any one model of car on the grid, to stop it turning into one make racing after a few years.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Tourer

4 valve engines have been around since 1912 so not particularly modern in reality, just different engineering approaches.

Can't see much in the way of fan difference dependant on engine design so think one way or the other would be a low priority for any series running along the lines suggested.

I take your point, maybe I should have said better design, imo anyway.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Honest question: What does a manufacturer bring these days outside of dollars? Aren't they little more than a large sponsor to the sport these days?

And if not, surely this is the wake up call Supercars needs to run the sport without any manufacturer involvement.

It's not that easy, I'm afraid, because cars are not like most other products.

People have emotionally charged relationships to their cars in a way that they don't have for dishwashers, energy drinks or gas stations. And thus, the involvement of car manufacturers gives people an easy entry point into the series, as they can root for "their" manufacturer, i.e. the one that made the car in their driveway. Without a team to follow it really is just 'guys going in circles', but if you have manufacturers involved, you give people an easy thing to latch onto and if "their guys" are doing well, it actually validates their purchasing decisions, which - let's face it - is one of the biggest investments people usually make in their lives, so it's something they naturally want to feel good about.

Now, in non-motorsports people separate themselves into 'tribes' according to geographic proximity, i.e. they tend to follow the team from their hometown or their country's national team, but all attempts to establish something like that in motorsports like A1 GP or that formula series where teams linked up with soccer clubs have fallen flat.

Then, there's also the aspect of credibility that manufacturer involvement lends to a series, because billion dollar companies racing - and spending - in a series is seen as a sign that the series is important - and not just 'guys going in circles' again.

The only other product that people are as emotionally invested in and lends itself as well to tribalism as cars are probably mobile phones with the whole Samsung/Android vs Apple thing, but good luck getting those brands involved involved in racing as sponsors, let alone in a more significant way as owners or designers.

Series like Formula 2 or ELMS actually give us a pretty good glimpse at what "manufacturer free" racing is like - and guess what? - there just aren't a whole lot of people following that, even though the racing is as good or better than in F1, the WEC or IMSA. But without manufacturers involved they just lack a certain "je ne sais quoi".

So all in all, car manufacturers actually
do bring a lot to racing that other sponsors don't.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Better to have a quad cam more modern design.

Not even. LS has more torque and less weight up high. It is why the Holdens or HSV's used to always belt Fords in the comparisons.

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

Of the current 16 Commodores. This announcement only affects 2 of them. The other 14 receive zero GM dollars.

This is right. Actually I wonder how much GM dollars RBR even got.

They funded development of the ZB on their own, and paid for it by charging other teams for the parts - so Holden didn't pay for it anyway.

I guess they paid to have the name on the side, but they are kinda irrelevant to the actual car.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It's not that easy, I'm afraid, because cars are not like most other products.

People have emotionally charged relationships to their cars in a way that they don't have for dishwashers, energy drinks or gas stations. And thus, the involvement of car manufacturers gives people an easy entry point into the series, as they can root for "their" manufacturer, i.e. the one that made the car in their driveway. Without a team to follow it really is just 'guys going in circles', but if you have manufacturers involved, you give people an easy thing to latch onto and if "their guys" are doing well, it actually validates their purchasing decisions, which - let's face it - is one of the biggest investments people usually make in their lives, so it's something they naturally want to feel good about.

Now, in non-motorsports people separate themselves into 'tribes' according to geographic proximity, i.e. they tend to follow the team from their hometown or their country's national team, but all attempts to establish something like that in motorsports like A1 GP or that formula series where teams linked up with soccer clubs have fallen flat.

Then, there's also the aspect of credibility that manufacturer involvement lends to a series, because billion dollar companies racing - and spending - in a series is seen as a sign that the series is important - and not just 'guys going in circles' again.

The only other product that people are as emotionally invested in and lends itself as well to tribalism as cars are probably mobile phones with the whole Samsung/Android vs Apple thing, but good luck getting those brands involved involved in racing as sponsors, let alone in a more significant way as owners or designers.

Series like Formula 2 or ELMS actually give us a pretty good glimpse at what "manufacturer free" racing is like - and guess what? - there just aren't a whole lot of people following that, even though the racing is as good or better than in F1, the WEC or IMSA. But without manufacturers involved they just lack a certain "je ne sais quoi".

So all in all, car manufacturers actually
do bring a lot to racing that other sponsors don't.

A good post with some interesting points. So lets say they go to MARC cars and have maybe five different bodies on them, a Mustang, a Kia, a BMW, a Merc and say a Lexus. That still gives some level of tribalism, you can follow your favourite marque, but the necessity of relying on a manufacturer disappears, no? If the racing is great, if the stars are in the cars, surely all the ingredients are still there to remain popular?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Better to have a quad cam more modern design.

Originally Posted by Mixer

Not even.

And that explains why V8 series Feraris have always had pushrod V8s since the 308 GTS was interested in 1975... Oh wait, no they don't.

4 and 5 valve layouts can apparently make more power for a given displacement. Furthermore, it allows independent variable cam phasing of intake and exhaust cam. Finally, variable valve lift (Honda's VTEC or Ferrari's three dimensional cam profile (can slide the whole camshaft left and right)) is impossible on a single camshaft pushrod engine... A hot cam LS is lumpy even at idle, instead of being able to engage the high-lift cam only when required like a Honda or Ferrari engine.

Of course the latter two technologies are prohibited in V8 Supercars, which negates some of the advantages of a DOHC layout.

PS. The main reason a LS has more torque than a Coyote is because it's a 20% bigger displacement, it ruddy well should have more torque...

[Driver TBA]

Speedcafe have reported that Roland Dane is meeting with GMH later this week about 2021.

Early contract payout and Roland to homologate "888 Hogsters" for 2021.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[mtpanorama]

It's Camaro time then. HSV is a their own company and they are importing the Chev trucks and doing the conversion and the Camaro. The HSV dealers will keep on selling them so it will be time to change over, just without the small % of the budget that Holden was tipping in.

[mayhem]

I get the feeling Roland has something up his sleeve here and I'm not sure its a Camaro.

[Juarez Jed]

Obviously the Camaro was a halo car that hasn't adequately replaced the HSV Commodores in sales numbers.
They will be a tough proposition for dealers who have been knocking $20k off them recently and still not moving much product.
As a sideline to a struggling Holden franchise they might have made sense but hard to sell profitably on their own. Who will take the financial haircut when Holden isn't ?
Certainly wouldn't hurt to have Camaros and Mustangs competing on the MARC platform for the next 5 or so years at least. The MARC 111 was already planned with a Camaro body and LS power.
Even though FIAT have temporarily canned the Challenger (to be badged as a Charger for Australia WTF ???) it would also have a supporter base.
Add the option of the Germans, Koreans and Japanese and I think it would be a pretty good series without requiring manufacturer support.

[Compromised]

I struggle to believe that manufacturer tribalism exists anymore (other than the odd die hard).

The drivers are the stars - not the manufacturers. We have a diverse grid full of interesting characters. Make people SVG fans rather than Holden fans

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

And that explains why V8 series Feraris have always had pushrod V8s since the 308 GTS was interested in 1975... Oh wait, no they don't.

4 and 5 valve layouts can apparently make more power for a given displacement. Furthermore, it allows independent variable cam phasing of intake and exhaust cam. Finally, variable valve lift (Honda's VTEC or Ferrari's three dimensional cam profile (can slide the whole camshaft left and right)) is impossible on a single camshaft pushrod engine... A hot cam LS is lumpy even at idle, instead of being able to engage the high-lift cam only when required like a Honda or Ferrari engine.

Of course the latter two technologies are prohibited in V8 Supercars, which negates some of the advantages of a DOHC layout.

PS. The main reason a LS has more torque than a Coyote is because it's a 20% bigger displacement, it ruddy well should have more torque...

You said it much better than I would have but Mixer will never learn.

[djr81]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

And that explains why V8 series Feraris have always had pushrod V8s since the 308 GTS was interested in 1975... Oh wait, no they don't.

4 and 5 valve layouts can apparently make more power for a given displacement. Furthermore, it allows independent variable cam phasing of intake and exhaust cam. Finally, variable valve lift (Honda's VTEC or Ferrari's three dimensional cam profile (can slide the whole camshaft left and right)) is impossible on a single camshaft pushrod engine... A hot cam LS is lumpy even at idle, instead of being able to engage the high-lift cam only when required like a Honda or Ferrari engine.

Of course the latter two technologies are prohibited in V8 Supercars, which negates some of the advantages of a DOHC layout.

PS. The main reason a LS has more torque than a Coyote is because it's a 20% bigger displacement, it ruddy well should have more torque...

Still waiting for the vtec to kick in.

It is a nonsense argument to talk about 4V being high tech. It isnt. Is the DOHC 24V VCT motor in my FGX any more high tech than the same motor with VCT, SOHC and 12 valves in an AU? Not really. But it is usefully more powerful.

[Mixer]

Refuses to acknowledge pushrods and more torque and lower COG.

Uses VTEC as an example.

The only engines more limp wristed for torque than Honda atmo VTEC engines are Toyota VVTI (heads by Yamaha) and Mazda atmo rotaries. One of the three can suck the skin off a custard.

Pushrod is not "old" or "outdated". DOHC engines you will find have been around for over a hundred years too, yet they didn't really take off until the 80s. probably with economy requirements and smarter engine management.

Pushrod has packaging benefits and will produce more low down torque than DOHC but can't rev as hard.

So not "old" or "inferior"

Peak power out of a DOHC looks good on paper but will get out accelerated handily by a car with more torque and drivability.

[djr81]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Refuses to acknowledge pushrods and more torque and lower COG.

Uses VTEC as an example.

The only engines more limp wristed for torque than Honda atmo VTEC engines are Toyota VVTI (heads by Yamaha) and Mazda atmo rotaries. One of the three can suck the skin off a custard.

Pushrod is not "old" or "outdated". DOHC engines you will find have been around for over a hundred years too, yet they didn't really take off until the 80s. probably with economy requirements and smarter engine management.

Pushrod has packaging benefits and will produce more low down torque than DOHC but can't rev as hard.

So not "old" or "inferior"

Peak power out of a DOHC looks good on paper but will get out accelerated handily by a car with more torque and drivability.

You know how it works. They trade massive heads and costs for displacement, make good power and torque then get slated for being low tech. On a good day I would call it a good engineering solution. But then Roland Dane said I killed Holden so what would I know?

[Silver GT]

Originally Posted by Compromised

I struggle to believe that manufacturer tribalism exists anymore (other than the odd die hard).

The drivers are the stars - not the manufacturers. We have a diverse grid full of interesting characters. Make people SVG fans rather than Holden fans

with a comment like that, you must work for Supercars

Tribalism is the glue that holds the series together...christ thats like saying you dont barrick for a footy team....I follow a player from team to team

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Refuses to acknowledge pushrods and more torque and lower COG.

Uses VTEC as an example.

The only engines more limp wristed for torque than Honda atmo VTEC

Kurosawa-san seems more than happy with the torque and drivability of his 3.2L Honda NSX Type R VTEC. It has more than ample power, and most likely would outperform the same year Chevrolet Corvette ZL1 around a race track, despite having an engine half the size: https://youtu.be/fFcAfutQqTo?t=121

Torque is just an intermediary force applied on the crankshaft. Ultimately, it's fuel (energy) that goes into the engine, and power (energy rate) that is extracted out. Torque largely means nothing, it's possible to have large torque and zero power as the case in structural bolts in a truss.

Using a 6.2L engine to do the job that a 3.2L engine can do is just wasteful, wouldn't you say?

Far more important to have a beautifully balanced and lightweight chassis that can use all available hp, instead of spinning up the rear wheels.

Originally Posted by djr81

On a good day I would call it a good engineering solution.

It's ok if the racing class has no displacement limit (or if the country doesn't tax vehicles based on displacement), but most racing classes do have limits, e.g., Improved Production Up To 2L, where the Honda VTEC 2.0L is rather popular.

ACO have always been good with accommodating Corvette under the balance of performance in GTE though, but by all means the "limp wristed" 4.5L Ferrari 458 GTE was every bit the match for the 7.0L Corvette GTE, despite a colossal 35% less displacement!

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Silver GT

with a comment like that, you must work for Supercars

Tribalism is the glue that holds the series together...christ thats like saying you dont barrick for a footy team....I follow a player from team to team

Ok so tribalism exists... how's Holden doing?