FIA FLAG RULES

[JABWOA]

And in Aust the blue is now a command flag, not advisory (in racing anyway) as upon been shown a blue, the to be lapped vehicle must yield at earliest oppertunity (or in V*SC case - blues shown as last resort to black flag.)

Re: SC Green flags - at Singapore, all points go green simulteneously until last cast passed the green at start finish then all points resume to normal. Was a shock at first (no warning given prior to first withdrawl call) but can see the benefit of doing so.) Would even work at Bathurst (although you don't get the larger spread of cars anymore under SC like you used to there.)

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

And in Aust the blue is now a command flag, not advisory (in racing anyway) as upon been shown a blue, the to be lapped vehicle must yield at earliest oppertunity (or in V*SC case - blues shown as last resort to black flag.)

Re: SC Green flags - at Singapore, all points go green simulteneously until last cast passed the green at start finish then all points resume to normal. Was a shock at first (no warning given prior to first withdrawl call) but can see the benefit of doing so.) Would even work at Bathurst (although you don't get the larger spread of cars anymore under SC like you used to there.)

Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during practice and the race.

At all times: A stationary flag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits if trafic is approaching on the track.

During practice: Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you.

During the race: The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

[Woolley]

That's just for V8s, though, isn't it? You have to have the technology to back it up and I'd have thought most classed don't have that available. Blue flag here remains an information flag except for those silly people in F1. Again mainly, I suspect, because many places they go there are insufficient people with experience of using it to get it right unless told.

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

And in Aust the blue is now a command flag, not advisory (in racing anyway) as upon been shown a blue, the to be lapped vehicle must yield at earliest oppertunity (or in V*SC case - blues shown as last resort to black flag.)

I was told at Bathurst that (in the V8s) the blue flag is not shown (as a command) until the car is already a lap down.

So that the leader won't get any help from blue flags as he comes up to pass slower cars but the remaining cars will.

Is this correct or did I misinterpret what I was told?

PJ

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Woolley

That's just for V8s, though, isn't it? You have to have the technology to back it up and I'd have thought most classed don't have that available. Blue flag here remains an information flag except for those silly people in F1. Again mainly, I suspect, because many places they go there are insufficient people with experience of using it to get it right unless told.

Wooley...correct..and maybe the A1s....that was the point of me posting the CAMS Blue Flag rules above...

There are other organisers of meetings here (eg AASA) as well and they may or may not call for FIA Flag Rules in the Supplementary Regulations issued for any given meeting...individual CoCs at non V8/F1 meets (and there a a lot of these!!!) have the discretion to ask Chief Flag Marshals to utilise singles (Blue and Yellow) preceding waved's etc etc.

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by PVDA

I seem to remember an old saying "Blue & Green will never be seen"

Do you mean "Blue and Green Should Never Be Seen Without Something in Between" ?

That's clothing etc, not motor racing.

A bit like flares being a distress signal - no, that's sailing (or is it?).

[Shelagh]

Bill got told off at Taupo (A1GP) for showing a waved yellow while Steve cleared Team Switzerland's front wing from the track, where they had carelessly left it. Reason: there weren't any racing cars in our sector so no need for the flag! (He was excused by being "foreign".)

We stopped doing F1 mainly because we were no longer able to use our judgement as flaggies (but there were other reasons). Being treated at the same level as a trained monkey meant we made the decision to spend the hard-earned cash on attending "real" events where we can actually utilise our developed skill (no comment from anyone on some of my recent flagging).

I do like Dave Brand's suggestion about removing marshals from trackside if the yellow is withdrawn. Can you imagine the consequences...........excellent! Now, how do we make that worldwide?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Bill got told off at Taupo (A1GP) for showing a waved yellow while Steve cleared Team Switzerland's front wing from the track, where they had carelessly left it. Reason: there weren't any racing cars in our sector so no need for the flag! (He was excused by being "foreign".)

Bill did the right thing...the teller-offerer was out of order

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Bill did the right thing...the teller-offerer was out of order

I found the NZ approach to marshalling & flagging quite different to what I'm used to but absolutely no complaints. We were treated so well - even if everyone thought we were completely mad travelling all that way just to marshal at a motorsport event!

That's the beauty of this hobby of ours - you can literally travel all over the world and you will always be welcome wherever you end up. And, allegedly, the rules are the same throughout for flagging purposes.

Now I just have to figure out how I can go back "down under" travelling business class without paying for it! I really, really, really, want to re-visit NZ.

A tad far for delivering pies, I deem

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

I was told at Bathurst that (in the V8s) the blue flag is not shown (as a command) until the car is already a lap down.

So that the leader won't get any help from blue flags as he comes up to pass slower cars but the remaining cars will.

Is this correct or did I misinterpret what I was told?

PJ

It was funny at Bathurst this year, we were told to use the blue flag at our discretion, 2 laps later "Race Control to all points, blue flag car ##". Yep nice work race control!

[JABWOA]

PapaJuliet, the V8 series currently informs a driver about to be lapped via his team. The Race Director has a computer with all hte cars in it and when a potential lapping incident may occurs (2 seconds apart I believe) the race director informs the team via email who then informs the driver over the radio to give way to the lapping driver. If this is not done with a set amount of time, the flag points will be called up and told to show a blue. If still no responce, then a blag flag will be shown.

275 GTB, the wording is right, the lapping driver MUST allow the faster car through at the earliest oppertinuty, were prior it was check your mirrors a faster car is approaching/passing - it was advisory/information but now Commands you take action. Interpretation is a wonderful thing.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Now I just have to figure out how I can go back "down under" travelling business class without paying for it! I really, really, really, want to re-visit NZ.

[o/topic]cattle class is not too bad, it's where you end up, not how you travel[/o/topic]
I agree, Bill was right, doesn't matter where in the world you are, you cover the marshals regardless of what might be coming.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Does anyone else agree with me that a waved green at every post following a safety car is the most pointless signal of all? The drivers know they're racing, it prevents a blue being shown at a time when it's probably most useful, and it's something you have to put down before you can use the yellow should you need to.

I think it does serve a useful purpose. It does give useful information - not to drivers, but to flaggies. Not every flaggie has a radio/scanner or is in a position to see the lights on the safety car go out; the green flag at an adjacent post gives a positive signal that the safety car has pulled in.

[AndyCox]

Originally Posted by PVDA

If a green or yellow is out you cant use the blue.

I can't see why a blue can't be displayed along with a green, so long as an overtake doesn't happen in the yellow zone.

The green says all ok after me, the blue says faster car approaching and is informing the preceding car that it is likely to be overtaken very soon. I don't see a conflict here as the faster car may still have slowed for the yellow but faster than (for example) a limping car with a puncture.

[Woolley]

The problem is not that they shouldn't be displayed together, but that it's not a simple task. If, as is usual, you're on your own, waving a green, adding a blue and keeping the yellow in hand in case is a bit much.

As for the green giving info, withdrawing the yellow and SC boards is plenty of info for me.

[nomad_n]

So Shelagh were yu paid peanuts seemed you were trained monkeys....... hehehe.

The only thing that is confusing is you go to all different meetings thoughout the year and they all have differnet interpartations on the rules..... so it means this flaggie is constantly confused.... (which isn't hard believe me lol).

[Marshal]

Surely, anyone with any sense just goes UDI and applies the directions as guidelines, nothing more. I spent the LMS at Silverstone happily giving Stationary blues, twice upgraded to double waved yellows on our own intitiative, and generally interpreted the regulations as I thought most apropriate. I mean, hell, I'm volunteering to do this in my own time, what's the worst that can happen??

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by PieMan

Changing direction slightly, what does anybody think of the flagging arrangements on 'road courses' in the USA?

Typically on one flag point per turn, at the entry, so nothing (for a green) at the exit and you're unlikely to be able to see the previous 'station' because that's at the entry to the previous turn (i.e. round the corner about a mile away if you are at the end of the long straight at Sebring).

The driver will see:

Nothing
Waved yellow
Incident
Nothing

Obviously this gets much more 'interesting' when there is more than one incident around the track at the same time.

I feel a question for Andy Wallace (BMMC Club Night, White Horse PH, Silverstone Village, 18 November at 8pm) coming out of this.

What you are forgetting here is the communications system used in the US and Canada, which is far superior to anything we have in the UK. (if you worked Champ car for Rockingham you may have some idea.)

All the posts are on an open landline, and will call the flag they are showing as soon as it is shown.

Therefore if post 3 has an incident and starts waving a yellow flag they will all hear the call ; "Control this is post 3 waving yellow"

Post 2 immediately knows to go stationary, and post 4 immediately goes green.

Similarly when the flags are withdrawn the call will be " Control this is post 3 no flag", though often this will be incorporated in the message that the incident is cleared.

It is also not necessarily true that there is only one flag post per corner. Normally the corner will run as one marshal station, but still have entry and exit flag points. If the previous post is not visable and you have an incident upstream the post can call on the land line " post 2 go waving (yellow)"

For a full detailed manual on North American flagging Kedre (racerkeke), Shannon (blueflagger), Barb or myself can give you links

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Surely, anyone with any sense just goes UDI and applies the directions as guidelines, nothing more. I spent the LMS at Silverstone happily giving Stationary blues, twice upgraded to double waved yellows on our own intitiative, and generally interpreted the regulations as I thought most apropriate. I mean, hell, I'm volunteering to do this in my own time, what's the worst that can happen??

Don't call me Shirley Marshal!!

Yes, trouble is, for example, V8 Supercars are one of our highest profile race meetings with full TV coverage. Not to mention the non-Marshal "observers" around the track.

If you use your intiative...and I have several times (to hell with them! so long as you know what you are doing and it is appropriate for the situation...not promoting civil disobediance!!) you may get the call "Flag 10.3 are you showing a stationary Yellow?" ACK "Bring it in, we are not using stationaries except for lack of adhesion etc!"

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

What you are forgetting here is the communications system used in the US and Canada, which is far superior to anything we have in the UK. (if you worked Champ car for Rockingham you may have some idea.)

All the posts are on an open landline, and will call the flag they are showing as soon as it is shown.

Therefore if post 3 has an incident and starts waving a yellow flag they will all hear the call ; "Control this is post 3 waving yellow"

Post 2 immediately knows to go stationary, and post 4 immediately goes green.

Similarly when the flags are withdrawn the call will be " Control this is post 3 no flag", though often this will be incorporated in the message that the incident is cleared.

It is also not necessarily true that there is only one flag post per corner. Normally the corner will run as one marshal station, but still have entry and exit flag points. If the previous post is not visable and you have an incident upstream the post can call on the land line " post 2 go waving (yellow)"

For a full detailed manual on North American flagging Kedre (racerkeke), Shannon (blueflagger), Barb or myself can give you links

Hey Kedre I'd love a copy of your Flagging manual..... to see the major differences in the countrys.......

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Don't call me Shirley Marshal!!

Yes, trouble is, for example, V8 Supercars are one of our highest profile race meetings with full TV coverage. Not to mention the non-Marshal "observers" around the track.

If you use your intiative...and I have several times (to hell with them! so long as you know what you are doing and it is appropriate for the situation...not promoting civil disobediance!!) you may get the call "Flag 10.3 are you showing a stationary Yellow?" ACK "Bring it in, we are not using stationaries except for lack of adhesion etc!"

HI got told of at indy for showing the blue to a porchse that was 1 second away from getting lapped.... So I did what every marshall does and reacts...... I then got the comms person say to me "Have you been advised by race control to do that" ( I was the point chief at the time....) but that didn't count I'm guessing......

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by nomad_n

HI got told of at indy for showing the blue to a porchse that was 1 second away from getting lapped.... So I did what every marshall does and reacts...... I then got the comms person say to me "Have you been advised by race control to do that" ( I was the point chief at the time....) but that didn't count I'm guessing......

No it does not count, you could be a veteran and know all there is to know...just don't matter a fig.

If Race Control asks you to do something, then you should comply, nothing worse for morale than hearing Race Control and Flag Points arguing the toss over the air (very untidy). Just a small point, the Comms person IS Race Control...they may be getting their instructions from the Clerk of the Course/others under certain circumstances....so not much point in jamming the airwaves and arguing

[nomad_n]

I see what you are saying GTB but my point is that the car that was going to be pasted had the lead car right on his tail and he had already had the blue shown to him at the entrance to the chicane. And I was talking to the blue flag from point 1 and he hadn't been told to put it out.... It comes back to common sense over anything else...

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

If Race Control asks you to do something, then you should comply, nothing worse for morale than hearing Race Control and Flag Points arguing the toss over the air (very untidy). Just a small point, the Comms person IS Race Control...they may be getting their instructions from the Clerk of the Course/others under certain circumstances....so not much point in jamming the airwaves and arguing

The simple thing is to say "Yeah, no worries" and then keep doing what YOU believe is the safe thing to do until you are replaced and most events don't have spare people to replace you.

Most people who are in RC probably haven't worked trackside for a long time, if ever, (especially those in RC at the major events) and certainly wont be experienced in flagging (Winton is an exception with the radio operator usually being a VFT member) and when you have people telling you what to do that you know don't understand what goes on you tend to err on the side of caution.

Besides they wont be standing before the coroner explaining why you had a certain flag displayed at the time and even though the rules tell you to do something you still have to live with what you saw as a result of the actions you are forced to take.

I can remember being visited by the Course Car at Turn 1 at PI and being asked if I displayed double Stationary Yellows (back when we could) because one of the Stewards in RC couldn't see it. They didn't like my explaination of "I display the flags so the drivers can see it not people 600m away in RC"

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by PVDA

The simple thing is to say "Yeah, no worries" and then keep doing what YOU believe is the safe thing to do until you are replaced and most events don't have spare people to replace you.

Most people who are in RC probably haven't worked trackside for a long time, if ever, (especially those in RC at the major events) and certainly wont be experienced in flagging (Winton is an exception with the radio operator usually being a VFT member) and when you have people telling you what to do that you know don't understand what goes on you tend to err on the side of caution.

Besides they wont be standing before the coroner explaining why you had a certain flag displayed at the time and even though the rules tell you to do something you still have to live with what you saw as a result of the actions you are forced to take.

I can remember being visited by the Course Car at Turn 1 at PI and being asked if I displayed double Stationary Yellows (back when we could) because one of the Stewards in RC couldn't see it. They didn't like my explaination of "I display the flags so the drivers can see it not people 600m away in RC"

I must use that...... So all in all I get that most people want it go back to the old way... And put the brains back in the hands of the people that are on the ground....